Being forced to work for someone else. Unconstitutional?

[GGT]

....They were like 'but the council should take care of that'.

There's a lot of that attitude here, too. Mostly from 'young' people or newer transplants to the area. After our last big snow storm, the Post Office was getting so many calls from angry people (Why didn't they deliver my mail?) they had to send out fliers to every county resident reminding them an access path has to be cleared to the mailbox. If that's your front porch or front door, shovel the walk and steps for the carrier. If that's a street box, shovel it out for the truck....even if the street plow buried it.

Is this a generational or regional attitude?

[Veldan Rath]

There's a lot of that attitude here, too. Mostly from 'young' people or newer transplants to the area. After our last big snow storm, the Post Office was getting so many calls from angry people (Why didn't they deliver my mail?) they had to send out fliers to every county resident reminding them an access path has to be cleared to the mailbox. If that's your front porch or front door, shovel the walk and steps for the carrier. If that's a street box, shovel it out for the truck....even if the street plow buried it.

Is this a generational or regional attitude?

Probably generational

[Hazir]

This happened when I was in my early twenties. I was merely house-sitting for friends who didn't want to leave their home empty for a full month. I think you could say I wasn't exactly local nor with vested interests in that particular community. But it simply seemed the right thing to do and I couldn't understand their 'let's wait for the council' attitude.

[Aimless]

God Hazir you busybody that road could easily support 17 billion fallen trees

[GGT]

Probably generational

Might be. Around here, the seniors aren't the whiners and complainers. They're the first ones out there with a broom to sweep sidewalk snow (that's easier on the back than lifting with a shovel). They want to make sure kids can walk to school, and the kids are hoping school's cancelled.

This happened when I was in my early twenties. I was merely house-sitting for friends who didn't want to leave their home empty for a full month. I think you could say I wasn't exactly local nor with vested interests in that particular community. But it simply seemed the right thing to do and I couldn't understand their 'let's wait for the council' attitude.

Yep, housesitting includes that kind of thing. For a reason.

[Hazir]

Might be. Around here, the seniors aren't the whiners and complainers. They're the first ones out there with a broom to sweep sidewalk snow (that's easier on the back than lifting with a shovel). They want to make sure kids can walk to school, and the kids are hoping school's cancelled.



Yep, housesitting includes that kind of thing. For a reason.

? I wasn't getting paid for it. Nor did I need to stay in that area, I was doing my friends a favor.

[Hazir]

God Hazir you busybody that road could easily support 17 billion fallen trees

I know, but shopping by candle light isn't as charming as it sounds.

[GGT]

? I wasn't getting paid for it. Nor did I need to stay in that area, I was doing my friends a favor.

Yeah, I know. That was one point countering those (like Rand) who said it's not "fair" to make elders PAY for snow-related things on private property *used by the public, like a sidewalk*.

(I don't really understand what Rand is getting at, actually. )

[Veldan Rath]

Yeah, I know. That was one point countering those (like Rand) who said it's not "fair" to make elders PAY for snow-related things on private property.

(I don't really understand what Rand is getting at, actually. )

The argument is that a local government is telling me (or grandpa) to shovel snow:

If it is on private property, then the local government can go screw. I may LIKE having snow on it.

If it is on public property, then the local government can go screw, as if it's public they need to clear it.

The fun part is, I pay a guy to plow out my driveway (he plows the snow into my yard as it is illegal to dump it in the road). He does so then leaves. THEN the town comes along and plows the road...guess where the snow goes?

My Driveway. LOL (no, not really LOL)

I agree in spirit that people should co-operate and help each other out. But really doesn't a local government have something better to do than pester and FINE an 80 yr old cause they don't have the ability/means to shovel?

The answer is no. It's not about safety for little Billy trying to get to school anyway, it's about looking every which way to gank more money out of people or worse, some punk as twat/cock at that is flexing their little local gov muscle and enjoying the power trip.

[GGT]

And, once again, we get to the issue of the elderly being compelled to plow their sidewalks.

Indeed. If the elderly want to spend their time in the comfort of their own home, good luck to them! I visited my grandparents on Christmas Eve and at one of their streets every house is a bungalow and I suspect everyone who lives there is retired. The pavements are not plowed and nobody objected.

The idea all these geriatrics should plow their homes everyday is ludicrous, insensitive and selfish.

To further my point above, my grandfather is 81. My nanna is in her seventies and has a bad back. Everyone I know on their street is retired. Yet I'm the selfish one for not thinking they should risk their health in the cold plowing snow? Why should they, they should enjoy their retirement however they see fit and stay indoors where it's warm if that's what they prefer.

If anyone has an urgent desire to get anywhere they should make their own arrangements. I made my own plans to get to work. I don't expect old people to clear the street for me.

About the elderly issue.....one would hope you shoveled your grandparents' walkway, and driveway (if they have one). Not really sure what "pavements" means to you.

You'd be the selfish one if you didn't help your nana. Ditto for her neighbors' family. If they don't have family, their neighbors should help out, or call for assistance that's available. It's a civic duty.

Our snow ordinances aren't written as a punishment for the elderly, but mostly to target slumlords or absentee landlords who don't give a shit. Many times it turns out one guy owns five row-houses on one block, and those are the only walks not shoveled.

Depending on the boro or township, and the amount of snowfall, nobody is cited or fined under 2-3 inches or less than 24 hours. In a snow state we can't rely on warm temps simply melting the stuff.

Aggie, my guess is the same thing is going on in Boston---too many sidewalks were left unattended and impeding pedestrians, becoming a public safety problem. Kinda sad it took a law to make people do the right thing?

[Hazir]

I don't even understand how it gets as far as that some old person who can't get the snow off his/her sidewalk gets into trouble with the law at all. I mean, really? Are we legally obliged to limit ourselves to the absolute minimum of clearing things out? Call me naive but so far I've never really lived in an environment where neighbours don't give a damn about whatever happens next door.

[Veldan Rath]

I don't even understand how it gets as far as that some old person who can't get the snow off his/her sidewalk gets into trouble with the law at all. I mean, really? Are we legally obliged to limit ourselves to the absolute minimum of clearing things out? Call me naive but so far I've never really lived in an environment where neighbours don't give a damn about whatever happens next door.

Come live in NYC or Boston. (My limited experiences)

Actually, that's too general, SOME parts of NYC or Boston.

[GGT]

The argument is that a local government is telling me (or grandpa) to shovel snow:

If it is on private property, then the local government can go screw. I may LIKE having snow on it.

If it is on public property, then the local government can go screw, as if it's public they need to clear it.

We already established that this private/public ownership of sidewalks is all over the map, varied by state / county / township / city / boro.

The fun part is, I pay a guy to plow out my driveway (he plows the snow into my yard as it is illegal to dump it in the road). He does so then leaves. THEN the town comes along and plows the road...guess where the snow goes?

My Driveway. LOL (no, not really LOL)

Same here, and they also plow in my mailbox. It's just the nature of snow plows.....

I'd rather not pay MORE in tax dollars for them to spend MORE time on entrance or egress to every driveway and mailbox. That'd be stupid use of taxes.

I agree in spirit that people should co-operate and help each other out. But really doesn't a local government have something better to do than pester and FINE an 80 yr old cause they don't have the ability/means to shovel?

That's not the intent of snow ordinances. Any 80 yr old can find or get help at no charge. If they can't, then your town must really suck.

The answer is no. It's not about safety for little Billy trying to get to school anyway, it's about looking every which way to gank more money out of people or worse, some punk as twat/cock at that is flexing their little local gov muscle and enjoying the power trip.

Your board of supervisors doesn't get an earful from tax payers for instituting stupid ordinances? Or were they forced to create a law because too many people just didn't give a shit? Man, your town must really suck.

[Aimless]

Hey look if your "private" plot of sidewalk cuts into the public sidewalk system and pollutes the walking experience then it's only reasonable to ensure that it's kept clear and clean. Cap and trade for snow

[GGT]

Hey look if your "private" plot of sidewalk cuts into the public sidewalk system and pollutes the walking experience then it's only reasonable to ensure that it's kept clear and clean. Cap and trade for snow

How does SSSocialist Sweden handle snow removal?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Don't see a lack of civic pride in having snow
But we're not talking cleaning, we're talking snow.
A bit, dead old people isn't hyperbole though. If you make octogenarians shovel there's something sick and twisted there. The idea of "get a neighbour" to do it doesn't work if the neighbours are all frail/sick/elderly.

Your inability to put two and two together is disturbing.
Cleaning up snow falls under civic duty.

[Veldan Rath]

Your inability to put two and two together is disturbing.
Cleaning up snow falls under civic duty.

That's a nice platitude. Should it be a law?

You keep dodging the point, what if the person does not have the means/ability?

[GGT]

Come live in NYC or Boston. (My limited experiences)

Actually, that's too general, SOME parts of NYC or Boston.

I think one glaring problem is how they've structured municipal services in NYC. Both garbage removal and snow removal are undertaken by the Dept. of Sanitation. It appears those budgets and workers are intertwined (?) Maybe residents have grown accustomed to thinking, "I paid taxes for those things, so someone will come along shortly to take care of the snow and the garbage...." (?)

Kind of an interesting evolution; from folks simply taking care of their private-public spaces, to creating laws to motivate the "slackers" who don't pitch in, to complaining about the laws.....

Defining Civic Duty seems to be the big thorn.

IMO, if everyone took a better look around our environments and felt "connected" to them, we wouldn't even need Litter Pickers (or whatever they're called) or city employees to shovel walkways in front of shops. Everyone faces these little choices every day. Picking up the stray can in a gas station parking lot and throwing it in a garbage can is one thing, kind of like noticing our neighbor's sidewalk. Ditto for state or national parks. Once everyone stops looking or caring, that's when ordinances and laws and public hiring happens. And taxes go up.

[Hazir]

Well, interesting to see that the alternative to civic duty for the conservative wing on the board is to hire public servants rather than making people feel they are not fulfilling what can reasonably be expected of them.

I guess it's only fun to complain about too many people in government employment after you forced government to hire them in the first place.

[']['ear]

But I didn't like having to honk repeatedly to get all the stray/neighborhood dogs to stop lying-down on the driveway enjoying the warmth.

OK, heated driveways are ridiculous.

[Veldan Rath]

Well, interesting to see that the alternative to civic duty for the conservative wing on the board is to hire public servants rather than making people feel they are not fulfilling what can reasonably be expected of them.

I guess it's only fun to complain about too many people in government employment after you forced government to hire them in the first place.

Well not really. It's f-ing snow. If there is a 5x5 foot patch that is covered with snow because Memaw is too old and broke to remove it, walk around it maybe?

[Hazir]

Well not really. It's f-ing snow. If there is a 5x5 foot patch that is covered with snow because Memaw is too old and broke to remove it, walk around it maybe?

Cool, stay with your community is communism is slavery ideas.

[RandBlade]

Well not really. It's f-ing snow. If there is a 5x5 foot patch that is covered with snow because Memaw is too old and broke to remove it, walk around it maybe?

Bingo.

Apart from those too old or frail to clear the snow anyway I don't see who can't walk either over or around the snow, so nobody wins from forcing people by law to clear it. Let people clear it if they want to, but if someone can't for some reason fine - walk over/around it. Simples.

I don't accept that clearing snow is an 81 year olds civic duty, I call BS on that. Or that people can't go on holiday in case it snows they need to be at home to clear it, WTF? Its not civic duty.

[Veldan Rath]

Cool, stay with your community is communism is slavery ideas.

Gads...hyperbole much? I'm not the one that went the far, the OP did.

[Aimless]

PS. It sucks extra much to be disabled in England

[Hazir]

Bingo.

Apart from those too old or frail to clear the snow anyway I don't see who can't walk either over or around the snow, so nobody wins from forcing people by law to clear it. Let people clear it if they want to, but if someone can't for some reason fine - walk over/around it. Simples.

I don't accept that clearing snow is an 81 year olds civic duty, I call BS on that. Or that people can't go on holiday in case it snows they need to be at home to clear it, WTF? Its not civic duty.

And of course nobody in that age group has neighbours. They also have hundreds of meters of sidewalk to clear, each and every one of them.

[Hazir]

PS. It sucks extra much to be disabled in England

The English disabled should have had the good sense to live in a part of Europe reached by civilisation.

[RandBlade]

And of course nobody in that age group has neighbours. They also have hundreds of meters of sidewalk to clear, each and every one of them.

Why does it matter if they have neighbours?

As for my grandparents, they live in communities were practically everyone on that street is retired, so what help is that?

Aimless has a good point though, this rule would be awful for the disabled. Do you want to force the wheelchair bound as well as octogenarians onto the streets with shovels to clear paths for you?

[Enoch the Red]

If this is a civic duty that you feel compelled to perform, why does it need to be a law? Hazir and others have no problems going out and doing what they think needs to be done for their community, and would do so regardless of the law, no? I assume that is pretty much the same way the world over. People who want, or feel compelled to be civic minded will go out and help when and where they can.

[Flixy]

I don't accept that clearing snow is an 81 year olds civic duty, I call BS on that. Or that people can't go on holiday in case it snows they need to be at home to clear it, WTF? Its not civic duty.

I see it more as a civic duty you should do for the 81 year olds, since they are most likely to slip and break bones. It's the decent thing to do. Don't think it should be an enforced law, because there are a lot of valid reasons that make it impossible for you to do it. And if all your neighbours are also old, or also away, or hate you, or say they would do it but then don't.. Not to mention that the pavement here, it;s not even clear whose it is, and who should clean it. And it's all student homes, who are almost all away during christmas break, so that doesn't help either.