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Thread: How to raise the next Columbine shooter

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I think there are objective ways to measure effort. For example, looking at the normalized trajectory of student grades (as, say, percentile of the class) over the course of a semester is a decent way to see if there is significant improvement. Thus, even if early grades were abysmal but later ones were average or better, it might not be unreasonable to mark such a student up a grade from what their raw numbers might show - especially if the course material is cumulative, so later improvement implies a mastery of previous material that they originally didn't understand. I don't think this should turn a C student into an A student, but it could easily turn a C+ into a B- in my book. The first derivative of a student's performance matters IMO, and should be rewarded (or penalized).
    I have virtually no leeway over grading, so that's not up to me. In principle, I don't have any objection to taking progress into account. The problem in the case I mentioned (and others I have heard about) is that the students consistently performed poorly, including relative to the rest of the class. I've also seen classmates in high school be defended by their parents for failing math and science class because the subject matter was "hard" and because they "tried their best". American parents are far too willing to see their kids give up when faced with the slightest amount of adversity (oddly enough, this doesn't apply to sports).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #62
    Oh, sure, if a student just underperforms and doesn't show any improvement I agree. But how could one argue they've tried hard, then? Hard work won't make every student get As, but they can generally improve upon an initially poor performance with effort.

    I'm curious about your sports comment, though - aren't there plenty of sportsmanship awards and the like, and isn't much of American culture centered on the concept of a 'good game', win or lose?

  3. #63
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Ah, grading. Difficult topic. You've got three possible grading system: normative, individual and relative.

    A school nearby uses a different approach, forgoing grading in the traditional sense completely. Every teacher has to give his pupils a written report of what they're able to do, how and where they improved and where they have to try harder. In the sense of: "You can reliably multiply numbers up to 1,000. You need to practice more on distributivity..."

    Benefit: The pupils know exactly where they stand and what they have to do, something which a mere grade like a "2" or a "B" is never able to express.
    This also shows at grade 10 when this school has to prepare its pupils for the switch to a "normal" Gymnasium where they give number grades. The pupils are at first very eager to get their first grade - and then they usually ask their teacher: "Okay, I got a 3. What does that mean?"
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Oh, sure, if a student just underperforms and doesn't show any improvement I agree. But how could one argue they've tried hard, then? Hard work won't make every student get As, but they can generally improve upon an initially poor performance with effort.

    I'm curious about your sports comment, though - aren't there plenty of sportsmanship awards and the like, and isn't much of American culture centered on the concept of a 'good game', win or lose?
    By having perfect attendance and turning in all assignments.

    I meant that American parents tend to live through their children and not let them quit sports teams, even when their children aren't enjoying playing.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #65
    Weird, I feel attendance and completing assignments is an expected minimum, not an evidence of hard work.

    I was unaware that US parents were so fixated on sports team membership. *shrugs*

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I was unaware that US parents were so fixated on sports team membership. *shrugs*
    I've come across very few parents that are this fixated, either now or during high school.

  7. #67
    I do admit that parents do not seem to realize a few facts of paramount importance: their child's aptitute and their environment.

    A child might be brilliant, but the socio-economic difficulties he experiences might make him stress other aspects of his or her life. On the other hand, a moron might be living in an intellectually stimulating environment. This disparity might actually make the moron smarter than the intellectually gifted student even if his aptitude is lower. What these "chinese parents" do is the latter.

  8. #68
    Over the weekend, I was pointed to an article from the Wall Street Journal titled “Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior.” And over the course of the day and the rest of the weekend, I saw more and more references to the author Amy Chua and her new book Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, mostly from Asian-American parent bloggers, and almost all harsh criticisms of the article, of the “Chinese mothering” espoused and of Chua herself.

    As a Chinese stay-at-home daddy blogger who was raised by two immigrant parents, I felt almost obligated to weigh in on the matter. If I hadn’t already been busy writing about stay-at-home parenting backlash I probably would have dashed off a response. As it was, I’ve had a little more time to process it since my initial reading.

    First, here’s the gist of the article, in case you haven’t read it already: You want to know why Chinese kids are so stereotypically successful? Because of Chinese mothers. Amy Chua raised her two daughters with lots of restrictions, incredible pressures and using techniques that I imagine many parents would consider abuse. She uses the term “Chinese mother” to mean a particular type of parenting, admitting that not all Chinese moms adhere to this practice and that many non-Chinese moms do. It’s about tough love, high expectations, total control.

    Many commenters and bloggers—in fact, the vast majority of the ones I’ve read—are aghast. Some are appalled at Chua’s parenting techniques and the potential damage it could cause to children who are raised this way. Others are angry because they have no desire to be lumped into Chua’s “Chinese mothers” categorization and feel that the Wall Street Journal is simply perpetuating harmful stereotypes. I’ve seen quite a lot of hateful language directed at Chua.

    My own reaction is a little more complicated, and not something I felt I could sum up in 140 characters for a tweet. While I don’t endorse the method of parenting portrayed in the article, I also found some truth in it and couldn’t simply condemn Chua either.

    Yes, I was shocked at the example Chua gave, a “story in favor of coercion” in which she forced her daughter to stay at the piano until she mastered a particular piece, not even allowing her to get up to use the bathroom. Yes, I agree that calling your daughter “fatty” or “garbage” is reprehensible and that Chua comes off as a tremendous bully. Yes, I feel that there is more to success than going to Harvard or Yale and performing in Carnegie Hall.

    But here’s what else I saw: the acknowledgment that the reason so many Asian kids seem to excel in academics has little to do with genetics and a whole lot to do with practice and culture. As recently as this winter I’ve had conversations about how “Asians are just good at math,” and I had a hard time convincing some that the “model minority” stereotype can be a harmful one. Not only can it discourage non-Asians who believe they didn’t win some genetic lottery, It places an unfair burden on Asian kids who are expected to behave and perform a certain way. Chua credits her children’s success to the parenting techniques and not to some inborn abilities. I think there is some truth to the Eastern idea of “practice makes perfect”—as supported by the “10,000 hours” theory of genius—compared to the Western idea of innate talent. (I don’t deny there is such a thing as talent or prodigies, but I also believe that practice goes a long way toward developing those early aptitudes.)

    That said, I have my disagreements with Chua. The biggest one isn’t whether or not severe parenting produces high-performing children: while I don’t think it will work universally, I think it’s fair to say that it has been proven effective in many cases. The deeper issue is how we think about “success” when it comes to our children—or more importantly, when it comes to our parenting. For Chua (and many parents, Chinese or Western), it seems that she feels her children’s behavior is a direct reflection of her parenting skills. Thus, if her daughter plays the piano well, she is a better parent. Also, Chua’s opinion on what constitutes success is quite stereotypical: academic achievement, musical excellence. Excelling at sports is seen as unimpressive, and school plays are completely laughable. Emotional maturity and personal passions? Forget it. The true measure of success here is “math whizzes and music prodigies.”

    Here’s my own story. My parents are both immigrants to the U.S., and they raised me and my siblings fairly strictly, but with the encouragement for each of us to pursue our own interests. We were expected to study hard but we weren’t whipped for Bs. (Neither were we given monetary rewards for straight As.) We took piano and violin lessons because we asked for them, not because our parents forced them upon us. Though, having started, our parents wouldn’t let us just quit taking lessons simply because we were tired of practicing—they required a good reason. We were required to speak Chinese when we were at home, which irritated us as kids but has been a blessing for us as adults. My parents didn’t force me toward law school or med school, and while it was a bit strange for them to accept the idea of me becoming a stay-at-home dad, they’ve been supportive of me regardless. According to Chua’s article, my parents were not Chinese parents. Maybe that’s why we haven’t accomplished the sorts of things that Chua considers successful. But my parents are okay with that, and so am I.

    This Monday I had the opportunity to participate in a roundtable discussion with many other Asian American parents, hosted by Jeff Yang of the San Francisco Chronicle’s Asian Pop column. Though all the participants were Asian American, we ran the gamut from first-generation to fifth-generation. Some were raised by Caucasian parents, one had a rebelling-against-tiger-mom hippie mom, some related experiences that made Chua seem tame in comparison. It was enlightening, to hear of the vastly different ways that we had been raised, but the common thread was that nobody endorsed the extreme “tiger mothering” reported in the article. Do a search for “Amy Chua” or “Chinese mothers” and you’re bound to turn up story after story of Asian Americans who are still reeling from the effects of this sort of parenting—or stories of siblings who committed suicide because of it. One participant in the phone call remarked that it felt like group therapy, being able to air these issues with each other.

    I also learned, though, that the Wall Street Journal article doesn’t tell the whole story. I suppose by now that should come as no surprise. Yang shared that he had actually picked up the book and read the entire thing, and that the article does her a disservice—the particular excerpts used for the article, the headline (not chosen by Chua), and the way it was presented all paint a very one-sided picture of this self-proclaimed “tiger mother.” But what’s left out in the article, according to Yang, is a lot of self-deprecation, confession, and the uncertainty that all of us feel as parents about how best to raise our kids. Yes, Chua is an extreme example of Chinese mothering, but the book is apparently more nuanced, more of a memoir and less of a how-to.

    Of course, the article will sell books. We already know it generated buzz—as of this writing it had already generated over 2800 comments. I’m sure the collected responses to that single article have already surpassed the word count of the book itself many times over.

    In the end, here is my hope: that parents, Asian or not, would take the time to consider what constitutes success. That we raise our kids as best we can, remembering that our self-worth isn’t based on their performance, academic or otherwise. That our kids would know that we love them, by our words and our actions. That our kids would dream big and reach far, not because we’ve forced them to but because we’ve given them courage and confidence instead of a fear of failure.

    And, hey, while I’m at it, I hope that we would learn not to judge a book by its cover (or cover story), and learn to tell the whole story instead of just the one that sells.
    Source

    Bolding is mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    People really want this moved to Debate?
    It does seem to have moved in that direction.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Yet on the opposite end, this is all of course anecdotal experience, do you know what it feels like to only be told "I'm proud of you, son." when pulling off an accomplishment like graduating Summa Cum Laude for both a Bachelors degree and a Masters of Science degree in 5.5 years, yet be scolded or told "I'm disappointed in you." for not meeting the ridiculous standards set for a minor task like shoveling snow or raking leaves? Or being told your intended career path isn't good enough, etc. etc. more bullshit...Do you know what this can do to someone?

    Or that happiness can be a factor in whether or not one is successful, or even one way of measuring it? Or how would you even gauge success when it comes to parenting? Would it be that your child has a good job, and makes a lot of money? What if they don't want what you would consider a good job, or don't really care for money? What if they do have those things, but they aren't happy and have several mental and emotional disorders, is that still success? Because honestly, personal experience here, when I hear either you, Lewk, or anyone else praise this article, or attempt to explain how it has good advice in it the first thought that comes to my mind is that you should probably fuck off, sterlize yourself, file some paperwork to ensure that you can't adopt either, and then stay a mile away from any children you might be expected to look after. Just my opinion though.

    Anyone who does what she suggests should likely be incarcerated for child abuse.
    Praise should be earned. encouragement, on the other hand, is something I always give my children. I do not scorn them for their failures, I ask them if they tried their best. Invariably they claim they did. I then discuss whether they think they could do better with practice/study/ whatever, and how I can help them to do so. Sometimes they want to just say forget it I don't want to do it anymore. Should I allow them to give up because they failed? Sometimes, in the attempt, they find that the activity isn't what they expected or like to do. I am not going to force them to try again under these circumstances. But I think I need to push them to not give up just because something is too hard, or they are not the best to ever try it.
    The worst job in the world is better than being broke and homeless

  10. #70
    From Wraith's link:

    But here’s what else I saw: the acknowledgment that the reason so many Asian kids seem to excel in academics has little to do with genetics and a whole lot to do with practice and culture. As recently as this winter I’ve had conversations about how “Asians are just good at math,” and I had a hard time convincing some that the “model minority” stereotype can be a harmful one. Not only can it discourage non-Asians who believe they didn’t win some genetic lottery, It places an unfair burden on Asian kids who are expected to behave and perform a certain way. Chua credits her children’s success to the parenting techniques and not to some inborn abilities. I think there is some truth to the Eastern idea of “practice makes perfect”—as supported by the “10,000 hours” theory of genius—compared to the Western idea of innate talent. (I don’t deny there is such a thing as talent or prodigies, but I also believe that practice goes a long way toward developing those early aptitudes.)
    Practice makes perfect. I heard the same thing when I was "expected" to take piano lessons for years. Yes, I practiced and learned how to play, but when I was old enough to make a logical argument against continuing (because I didn't really enjoy playing the piano) my folks listened. I dropped piano in favor of choir. It was something musical, at least. They had a requirement that their kids do something either musical, artistic, or athletic. Extra-cirricular. I've done the same for my kids. But if they joined a team sport or picked an instrument, they had to follow-through on the minimum time (season or semester).

    Our school district pushes math and science to an extreme, but neither of my kids enjoys math or science. They both adore history and literature, and "soft" sciences. If I had to choose between a miserable kid trying to excel at math or chemistry, vs a happy kid excelling at what they enjoy, it's kind of a no-brainer. Some families get bent out of shape about specializing or having a liberal arts education.....Jack of All Trades, Master of None is their mantra. (My folks used to argue about that, too.)

    One thing that's changed is Time, or Timing. Older generations had the idea that right after HS you should enter college, pick a major and graduate as fast as possible (3-4 yrs), then get right into the work force. Stay at one place and climb the ladder, get a gold watch at retirement (with a pension). That's all changed.

    Now gap years are encouraged, or taking 5-6 yrs to get a degree while doing internships, or an international semester. Declaring double majors instead of one major + minor. Plenty of people return for a 2nd degree, or a Master's or PhD, when they're in their 30's or 40's. Part-time college while working full-time. Our career years aren't just from 21 to 58.....or 65-70 any more. Most people will have at least 3 career paths in their lifetime, whether they like it or not.

    It's probably more helpful to teach kids to be flexible and adaptable, building on skills that can lead to new skills, windows that open several doors. I don't see that from the Chinese or Tough Love method of parenting/teaching.

    And as rummie says, kids need encouragement, even some pushing nudges. Especially when they fail. But not everyone can be a math wiz; it's stupid to think every round peg can fit into a square hole if we just hammer hard enough. Some kids aren't even university material, but better suited for a trade or art form.

  11. #71
    While I'm not going to criticize people for choosing liberal arts over the sciences (seeing that I did so myself; though I actually had better grades in math/science and could have gone in that direction), I do notice that a lot of people who make this choice do so because the former is "easier". People aren't willing in to put in the time and the effort to become good at math and the sciences, while anyone who can come up with a decent argument can claim to be good at liberal arts. It doesn't help that children are giving up on the sciences in elementary school; once they give up, it's very hard to get them interested later.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunner View Post
    Praise should be earned. encouragement, on the other hand, is something I always give my children. I do not scorn them for their failures, I ask them if they tried their best. Invariably they claim they did. I then discuss whether they think they could do better with practice/study/ whatever, and how I can help them to do so. Sometimes they want to just say forget it I don't want to do it anymore. Should I allow them to give up because they failed? Sometimes, in the attempt, they find that the activity isn't what they expected or like to do. I am not going to force them to try again under these circumstances. But I think I need to push them to not give up just because something is too hard, or they are not the best to ever try it.
    You know what I'm going to call this, Agreement by Dilution. You say you agree with Lewk, who says he agrees with the article, but you don't really. You agree with a heavily diluted version of the article, and a diluted version of Lewk's opinion, and I really wish people would say what they mean. It would save a lot of time arguing. Let me point out to you how you don't agree with Lewk:

    1) Lewk is going to scorn his children for their failures.
    2) Lewk is not going to care on a positive note if they tried their best. Its only going to be a measure by how much they are a failure (because if they didn't try their best they can always do better, whereas if they did, they are always going to be a failure).
    3) Lewk (or at least the Chinese Mother) is going to force their children to keep doing something they don't enjoy.

    So there you have it. You only agree with Lewk on the idea that praise should be earned, however this would be like claiming I agree with Lewk that thieves should be punished, whereby I believe they should face some jail time or a fine and he believes they should be killed.
    . . .

  13. #73
    On what basis are you making these claims? On the basis of a few ambiguous posts? You're willing to call someone a monsters based on that? Seriously?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  14. #74
    I agreed with Lewk on one point, and did not speak to any other. Do not put words on the page for me, or read into them more than is there. I can agree with the gist of what he said without agreeing to the scope.
    The worst job in the world is better than being broke and homeless

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    On what basis are you making these claims? On the basis of a few ambiguous posts? You're willing to call someone a monsters based on that? Seriously?
    Oh sorry I also failed to include that Lewk isn't going to "spare the rod" when it comes to his children. Have you not paid attention to his posts about child rearing over the years? This is probably the cumulative impression of how Lewk plans to raise his kids based on his posts of what parents should do or what parents do wrong with their children over the course of the 5+ years I've been watching him post.

    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunner View Post
    I agreed with Lewk on one point, and did not speak to any other. Do not put words on the page for me, or read into them more than is there. I can agree with the gist of what he said without agreeing to the scope.
    If a mob of people showed up at your house and one of them shouted "Rumrunner should be given delicious hot coco and then drawn and quartered alive." would you say that you agree with this mob?
    . . .

  16. #76
    Wait, when did this thread turn into an analysis of Lewk's parenting?

    @ Loki: I've known a few math geeks that found "soft sciences" very difficult. Especially interpersonal relationships. They couldn't verbalize, persuade, debate, or write their way out of a wet paper bag. It goes both ways.

  17. #77
    RACE WAR IN THE WSJ!

    THE SATURDAY ESSAY | JANUARY 15, 2011

    In Defense of the Guilty, Ambivalent, Preoccupied Western Mom

    Ayelet Waldman on the virtues of letting kids quit, have sleepovers and find their own way.

    By AYELET WALDMAN

    Here are some of the things that my four children of a Jewish mother were always allowed to do:

    • Quit the piano and the violin, especially if their defeatist attitude coincided with a recital, thus saving me from the torture of listening to other people's precious children soldier through hackneyed pieces of the juvenile repertoire, plink after ever more unbearable plonk.

    • Sleep over at their friends' houses, especially on New Year's Eve or our anniversary, thus saving us the cost of a babysitter.

    • Play on the computer and surf the Internet, so long as they paid for their Neopet Usuki dolls and World of Warcraft abomination cleavers out of their own allowances.

    • Participate in any extracurricular activity they wanted, so long as I was never required to drive farther than 10 minutes to get them there, or to sit on a field in a folding chair in anything but the balmiest weather for any longer than 60 minutes.

    • Quit said extracurricular activities, especially if their quitting coincided with league finals that might have demanded participation on my part exceeding the requirements stated above.

    In the days since this newspaper published Amy Chua's simultaneously entertaining and infuriating excerpt from her new book, "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother," my two elder children, 16 and 13, have devoted a remarkable amount of time to raging against the essay and crafting compelling and bombastic rebuttals to be delivered to Ms. Chua herself, should they ever encounter her.

    I am more than a little astonished. I say with confidence that neither of my children has ever before bothered to read a single word of The Wall Street Journal. I don't think that I could have screamed or threatened them into doing so, not even if I'd tossed them outside in the middle of winter, to cower barefoot and freezing on the front step. So to Ms. Chua I express my gratitude. It seems to take a Chinese mother to force my Western kids to read the paper.

    Were I crafting my own bombastic and compelling rebuttal to Ms. Chua, I might point out, as others have, that Asian-American girls aged 15 to 24 have above average rates of suicide. I might question the hubris of taking credit for success that is as likely to have resulted from the genetic blessings of musicality and intellect as from the "Chinese" child-rearing techniques of shrieking and name calling. But I have a feeling that she knows that.

    More importantly, if I did write such a rebuttal, I'd risk being called a hypocrite by my own children. Sophie, my oldest, would remind me of the recent evening when I stared in stony silence at her report card, sniffing derisively at her father's happy congratulations.

    "What?" she said. "I got 5 solid As."

    I shrugged.

    "Ayelet," my husband warned.

    My daughter narrowed her eyes at me. She knew what was coming.

    I pointed at the remaining two grades, neither a solid A. Though there was not the "screaming, hair-tearing explosion" that Ms. Chua informs us would have greeted the daughter of a Chinese mother, I expressed my disappointment quite clearly. And though the word "garbage" was not uttered, either in the Hokkien dialect or in Yiddish, it was only because I feared my husband's opprobrium that I refrained from telling my daughter, when she collapsed in tears, that she was acting like an idiot.

    The difference between Ms. Chua and me, I suppose—between proud Chinese mothers and ambivalent Western ones—is that I felt guilty about having berated my daughter for failing to deliver the report card I expected. I was ashamed at my reaction. But here is another difference, one I'll admit despite being ashamed of it, too: I did not then go out and get hundreds of practice tests and work through them with my daughter far into the night, doing whatever it took to get her the A. I fobbed that task off on a tutor, something I can afford to do because my children reside in the same privileged world as Ms. Chua's.

    I am, actually, grateful to Ms. Chua, and a little in awe of her. I expend far too much of my maternal energies on guilt and regret. Reading her essay definitely put some Chinese iron into my Nerf Western spine, and though I eventually apologized to my daughter for failing to acknowledge, right off the bat, all those tough classes in which she had excelled last semester, and for expressing my disappointment at the others too vigorously, I have also refused to back down from my expectation that she devote extra time to those two subjects in which she is "underperforming."

    In her book, Ms. Chua tells a story of coercion that resulted in a certain kind of success with one of her daughters. Let me tell another kind of story. My Rosie is mildly dyslexic. By the time she was diagnosed, in second grade, she was lagging far behind her classmates. For years I forced her to spell words in the bathtub with foam letters, to do worksheets, to memorize phonemes and take practice tests. My hectoring succeeded only in making her miserable. Eventually, and totally out of character, she had even stopped loving school. She suffered from near-constant stomachaches and broke down in tears almost every day. At last we heard about a special intensive reading program that required students to spend four hours every day in a small room with an instructor, being drilled in letters, sight words and phonics. It sounded awful, but Rosie insisted on doing it. She loved books and stories. She wanted to read.

    Every day when we picked her up, her face would be red with tears, her eyes hollow and exhausted. Every day we asked her if she wanted to quit. We begged her to quit. Neither her father nor I could stand the sight of her misery, her despair, the pain, psychic and physical, she seemed far too young to bear. But every day she refused. Every morning she rose stoically from her bed, collected her stuffies and snacks and the other talismans that she needed to make it through the hours, and trudged off, her little shoulders bent under a weight I longed to lift. Rosie has an incantation she murmurs when she's scared, when she's stuck at the top of a high jungle gym or about to present a current events report to her class. "Overcome your fears," she whispers to herself. I don't know where she learned it. Maybe from one of those television shows I shouldn't let her watch.

    At the end of a grim and brutal month, Rosie learned to read. Not because we forced her to drill and practice and repeat, not because we dragged her kicking and screaming, or denied her food, or kept her from the using the bathroom, but because she forced herself. She climbed the mountain alone, motivated not by fear or shame of dishonoring her parents but by her passionate desire to read. She did it herself, without us, and it is no exaggeration to say that we were and remain stunned with pride. What's more, she came out of the experience with a sense of herself as a powerful, tenacious person, one who is so proud of having succeeded despite her dyslexia—"like Alexander Graham Bell, Winston Churchill and Albert Einstein," as she likes to say—that during her school's "Care Week," on her own initiative, she gave presentations to her classmates and to groups of other students about living with dyslexia.

    I have a feeling that had one of Amy Chua's daughters suffered from a learning disability like Rosie's, Ms. Chua would have channeled her admirable perseverance into finding a solution that worked for her child. She would have been just as dogged and determined, but in an entirely different way. Roaring like a tiger turns some children into pianists who debut at Carnegie Hall but only crushes others. Coddling gives some the excuse to fail and others the chance to succeed. Amy Chua and I both understand that our job as mothers is to be the type of tigress that each of our different cubs needs.

    —Ms. Waldman is the author of "Bad Mother" and the novel "Red Hook Road."

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...577800488.html

  18. #78
    Yeah, the original WSJ article has over 6,000 comments today. Must have hit a nerve.

  19. #79
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    She should have changed the title to "How Chinese mothers care about what others think of them and their children, so they're not actually living their own life, but that of others."

    I agree with some of her points in regards to raising children, but she's a bit extreme. Anyway if Chinese mothers are superior, why haven't we been seeing the latest discoveries/inventions (say past 60 years) and the likes coming from these children who were raised by a Chinese mother? It sounds like she doesn't understand that it's not all about getting straight A's. You can teach a monkey to memorise facts and solve simple problems but it won't be able to invent a computer.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    You can teach a monkey to memorise facts and solve simple problems but it won't be able to invent a computer.
    Heuristics or algorithm? Some of the most complex conundrums can be solved by "simple"-minded pricks if they are allowed to use algorithms and extended temporal junctions. Thomas Jefferson tried approx 1000 different filaments before successfully finding the right kind. But I'm assuming you're speaking of creativity? Bcause the ability to produce novel idea(s) is independent of IQ, grades, SAT score, GMAT scores, and education.

  21. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega View Post
    Heuristics or algorithm? Some of the most complex conundrums can be solved by "simple"-minded pricks if they are allowed to use algorithms and extended temporal junctions. Thomas Jefferson tried approx 1000 different filaments before successfully finding the right kind. But I'm assuming you're speaking of creativity? Bcause the ability to produce novel idea(s) is independent of IQ, grades, SAT score, GMAT scores, and education.
    Thomas Jefferson? Filaments?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Thomas Jefferson? Filaments?
    wasn't his main problem finding a filament that wouldn't burn out? it was in some article I read a year or two ago. like he could be considered a monkey performing the same trick, almost.

  23. #83
    That would be Thomas Edison.

  24. #84
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    573
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega View Post
    Heuristics or algorithm? Some of the most complex conundrums can be solved by "simple"-minded pricks if they are allowed to use algorithms and extended temporal junctions. Thomas Jefferson tried approx 1000 different filaments before successfully finding the right kind. But I'm assuming you're speaking of creativity? Bcause the ability to produce novel idea(s) is independent of IQ, grades, SAT score, GMAT scores, and education.
    Yeah I was speaking more so for creativity.

  25. #85
    Retreat of the Tiger Mother is now #1 on NYT for most e-mailed articles.

    (Plus a new article asking if "Extreme Parenting is Effective")

    TRY this at a dinner party in one of the hothouses of Ivy League aspiration — Cambridge, Scarsdale, Evanston, Marin County:

    Declare that the way Asian-American parents succeed in raising such successful children is by denying them play dates and sleepovers, and demanding that they bring home straight A’s.

    Note that you once told your own hyper-successful Asian-American daughter that she was “garbage.” That you threatened to throw out your other daughter’s dollhouse and refused to let her go to the bathroom one evening until she mastered a difficult piano composition. That you threw the homemade birthday cards they gave you as 7- and 4-year-olds back in their faces, saying you expected more effort.

    Better yet, write a book about it.

    What kind of reaction might you get?

    In the week since The Wall Street Journal published an excerpt of the new book by Amy Chua, a Yale law professor, under the headline “Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior,” Ms. Chua has received death threats, she says, and “hundreds, hundreds” of e-mails. The excerpt generated more than 5,000 comments on the newspaper’s Web site, and countless blog entries referring in shorthand to “that Tiger Mother.” Some argued that the parents of all those Asians among Harvard’s chosen few must be doing something right; many called Ms. Chua a “monster” or “nuts” — and a very savvy provocateur.

    A law blog suggested a “Mommie Dearest” element to her tale (“No. Wire. Hangers! Ever!!”). Another post was titled “Parents like Amy Chua are the reason Asian-Americans like me are in therapy.” A Taiwanese video circulating on YouTube (subtitled in English) concluded that Ms. Chua would not mind if her children grew up disturbed and rebellious, as long as she sold more books.

    “It’s been a little surprising, and a little bit intense, definitely,” Ms. Chua said in a phone interview on Thursday, between what she called a “24/7” effort to “clarify some misunderstandings.” Her narration, she said, was meant to be ironic and self-mocking — “I find it very funny, almost obtuse.”

    But reading the book, “Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother,” it can be hard to tell when she is kidding.

    “In retrospect, these coaching suggestions seem a bit extreme,” she writes in the book after describing how she once threatened to burn her daughter’s stuffed animals if she did not play a piano composition perfectly. “On the other hand, they were highly effective.”

    In interviews, she comes off as unresolved. “I think I pulled back at the right time,” she said. “I do not think there was anything abusive in my house.” Yet, she added, “I stand by a lot of my critiques of Western parenting. I think there’s a lot of questions about how you instill true self-esteem.”

    Her real crime, she said, may have been telling the truth. “I sort of feel like people are not that honest about their own parenting,” she said. “Take any teenage household, tell me there is not yelling and conflict.”

    Ms. Chua is one half of the kind of Asian-Jewish academic power couple that, as she notes, populates many university towns. Her husband is Jed Rubenfeld, also a Yale law professor, and the author of two successful mystery novels. Ms. Chua, herself the author of two previous books, was reported to have received an advance in the high six figures for “Tiger Mother.”

    If she has one regret, she said, it is that the Journal excerpt, and particularly the headline, did not reflect the full arc of her story.

    Her book is a memoir that ends with her relenting (sort of) when the younger of her two teenage daughters refuses to go along with the “extreme parenting” Ms. Chua uses to prevent the kind of decline that she thinks makes some third-generation Asian-Americans as soft and entitled as their teammates on suburban soccer teams where every child is declared Most Valuable Player.

    “I’ve been forced to answer questions about a book I didn’t write,” she said. “It’s not saying what people should do, it’s saying, ‘Here’s what I did, and boy did I learn a lesson.’ ” All this is captured, she said, in the book’s three-paragraph subtitle, which concludes with the words, “and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old.”

    Born to Chinese parents who were raised in the Philippines and attended the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Ms. Chua, 48, graduated from Harvard and Harvard Law, where she was an executive editor of the Law Review. She confesses in her book that she is “not good at enjoying life,” and that she wasn’t naturally curious or skeptical like other law students. “I just wanted to write down everything the professor said and memorize it.”

    She was determined to raise her daughters the way she and her three sisters had been raised — which, she said, left them adoring their parents. By her account, her elder daughter, Sophia, complied, excelled and played piano at Carnegie Hall. But the younger, Lulu, rebelled. At the turning point of the memoir, Lulu, then 13, begins smashing glasses in a Moscow restaurant and yelling at her mother, “I HATE my life, I HATE you.”

    Ms. Chua’s husband appears only peripherally in “Tiger Mother” — though there is one battle in which she lashes out at him after he worries that she is pushing their daughters to the point that there is “no breathing room” in their home.

    “All you do is think about writing your own books and your own future,” she says to him. “What dreams do you have for Sophia or for Lulu? Do you ever think about that? What dreams do you have for Coco?” He bursts out laughing — Coco is their dog.

    She concludes, “I didn’t understand what was so funny, but I was glad our fight was over.”

    Initially, Ms. Chua said, she wrote large chunks about her husband and their conflicts overchild rearing. But she gave him approval on every page, and when he kept insisting she was putting words in his mouth, it became easier to leave him out.

    “It’s more my story,” she said. “I was the one that in a very overconfident immigrant way thought I knew exactly how to raise my kids. My husband was much more typical. He had a lot of anxiety, he didn’t think he knew all the right choices.” And, she said, “I was the one willing to put in the hours.”

    Still, she said, her children got pancakes and trips to water parks because of their father, the son of parents more inclined to encourage self-discovery.

    The reaction to the book was particularly anguished among those who are products of extreme Asian parents. “I’m horrified that she’s American-born and hanging on to this, when most of us are trying to escape it,” said Betty Ming Liu, the daughter of Chinese immigrants from Vietnam and author of one of the many blog posts about the book. A California woman recalled how her sister became the perfect Asian daughter Ms. Chua aspires to produce, only to kill herself because she was afraid to tell anyone she suffered from depression.

    Ann Hulbert, the author of “Raising America,” a history of a century’s worth of conflicting child-rearing advice, who is writing a book about child prodigies, notes that it is not hard to reignite the Mommy Wars.

    “There is a kind of utter certainty in her writing,” she said of Ms. Chua, “and that confidence goes so against the underlying grain of American parenting and child-rearing expertise that it immediately elicits a response that then suggests a kind of certainty on the other side that isn’t there, either.”

    Friends describe Ms. Chua as self-deprecating and a dry wit, her children as happy, and their home as humming with music and activity and, yes, love.

    “Not that she’s without opinion, but she’s writing a memoir, not a parenting guide,” said Alexis Contant, who describes Ms. Chua as her closest friend for 20 years. “She will say sleepovers are overrated, but I have never heard her say, ‘I can’t believe so-and-so let their kid do it.’ ”

    Ms. Chua said that her daughters have been eager to speak out in favor of the book; she is shielding them from the publicity. She said, however, that they did ultimately have play dates — though not many between the ages of 9 and 13, due to music practice. Sophia, now 18, has a boyfriend, she told me. “My kids have whatever those things are called — iPods,” she said. “They have iTunes accounts.”

    Ms. Chua wrote most of the book in eight weeks, yet struggled with the end, she said, reflecting the East-West tug on her parenting. “It’s a work in progress,” she said. “On bad days I would say this method is terrible. I just need to give them freedom and choice. On good days, when Lulu would say: ‘I’m so glad you made me write that second draft of my essay. My teacher read it out loud,’ I think, I’ve got to stick to my guns.”

    This week, her book tour will take her to the places where she has surely sparked the most debate: the Bay Area, Cambridge and the northwest quadrant of Washington.

    But first, the family was planning to celebrate Lulu’s 15th birthday. They were taking her and eight of her friends to New York City. For a sleepover.



    * (edited to add the full text. Sorry, I forgot NYT requires log-in now.)



    Others have commented that it seems to be a mommy war between Asians and Jews, for who produces the most successful money-makers.
    Last edited by GGT; 01-16-2011 at 01:35 PM. Reason: *

  26. #86
    Also, doesn't anyone else find it curious that the men in these discussions (if you read all the comments) are practically punch-line anecdotes?

    Chua's husband is also a Yale law professor, an author of mystery novels, but he comes off as the guy who just lets the kids eat pancakes and visit water parks? He's the anxious clueless one, and defers all child-rearing to his wife? Huh?

    I'm all for a more "maternal" and nurturing way to raise children, but giving men/fathers a "peripheral" and "subservient" role to women is just.....well, it's just stupid. I wonder if this western father would have acted differently if these were sons instead of daughters. I suspect he would have, but that confuses things for everyone.


  27. #87
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Also, doesn't anyone else find it curious that the men in these discussions (if you read all the comments) are practically punch-line anecdotes?

    Chua's husband is also a Yale law professor, an author of mystery novels, but he comes off as the guy who just lets the kids eat pancakes and visit water parks? He's the anxious clueless one, and defers all child-rearing to his wife? Huh?

    I'm all for a more "maternal" and nurturing way to raise children, but giving men/fathers a "peripheral" and "subservient" role to women is just.....well, it's just stupid. I wonder if this western father would have acted differently if these were sons instead of daughters. I suspect he would have, but that confuses things for everyone.

    Your articles says that he had a veto right on every page and that he invoked said veto right often because she was putting words in his mouth in his opinion.

    That's the reason why he's not a prominent figure in the book.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #88
    With that little factoid, my perception that their marriage must be disintegrating grew a bit stronger.

    I do love the Asians vs. Jews race war that the WSJ somewhat accidentally tried to start.

  29. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Your articles says that he had a veto right on every page and that he invoked said veto right often because she was putting words in his mouth in his opinion.

    That's the reason why he's not a prominent figure in the book.
    Not quite what I was getting at. I wonder why he's not a more prominent figure in their marriage, and raising their children.

    Reading that whole mess made me question how the hell they even fell in love, got married, and chose to spawn.

  30. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    With that little factoid, my perception that their marriage must be disintegrating grew a bit stronger.

    I do love the Asians vs. Jews race war that the WSJ somewhat accidentally tried to start.
    Plus your average Jewish family from Eastern Europe is more likely to be closer to the "Chinese mom" stereotype than what seemed like the Upper East Side stereotype; the fact that the woman was Jewish was coincidental.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Not quite what I was getting at. I wonder why he's not a more prominent figure in their marriage, and raising their children.

    Reading that whole mess made me question how the hell they even fell in love, got married, and chose to spawn.
    How do you know he's not? She explicitly said that he had a large part in the book but it got taken out because he didn't want words put in his mouth.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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