Take your head out of your ass. He also may just giving a snippet of how he is raising his boy. If you think he gave you his whole raising theory in the few posts he made on this topic, then you are delusional and just LOOKING for a fight with him.Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita
Don't see what you're digging for here, but we don't need his parental guidance history to call bullshit on something like this:
I don't think he understands how the article uses the term "Chinese mother" either, which is why I'm with Dread in thinking this piece is more trollish than anything else.
Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 01-11-2011 at 05:54 PM.
I was digging that maybe calling each other lousy parents in this forum may be a bad idea. It's NOT going to go anywhere productive.
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Hurf durf my kid can beat up your kid!
Not calling Lewk a bad parent here. Thats been covered numerous times before. I'm pointing out his bullshit defense of overcuddling extending so far that younger children aren't old enough to have goals and objectives that deserve praise.
In effect you are.
However, what he calls goals and objectives are probably a universe apart from you call goals and objectives.
I'm thinking he's thinking reading books, shooting hoops, getting good grades. Not the stuff 2 year olds do.
Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita
I second Veldan. What exactly do you hope to gain by insulting someone else's parenting abilities? If anything, you're making yourself look bad by doing this on the basis of a few ambiguous posts.
Hope is the denial of reality
I think that Lewk made some good points, well, one anyway. While your children should know you'll stand by them through thick and thin, that you'll always love them and help them to acheive their full potential.It should also be known that you will not accept less than their best efforts, or hand out praise without merit until praise loses it's meaning and is expected rather than appreciated. When the child expects to praised for failure because "at least you tried" rather than getting the you'll have to work harder and practice/study/whatever more (with help from you as appropriate) then success ceases to matter, as failing is rewarded the same as success.
The worst job in the world is better than being broke and homeless
Which is why I mentioned he appears to be willfully ignoring the seemingly everyday stuff that 2 year olds do, especially since he has one. If he admitted the pace of which children at this age learn, and display new abilities, his defense wouldn't come out so strong. Why should the focus be limited to events so far in the future?
<facepalm>
yeah, you just want to fight with Lewk.
Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita
I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise.derpI'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely.
Actually, that's only true because they have an abnormally low (for an Asian country) suicide rate for males, and is one of the few nations with more female than male suicides. The female rate is up there with Japan et al. Why should this be? I don't know, though maybe the second child policy and the preference for male babies has something to do with.Did you know China is ranked below a whole host of countries in terms of suicide rates? Like the United States, Germany, Chile, Australia, Iceland, Romania, Canada, Poland, South Africa and Russia?
Article on the high suicide rate amongst young Asian-Americans.
Edit: Dreadnaught, punt thread to D&D.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Nothing ambiguous there, dude.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
I actually agree with Lewk. Most of my peers are caustic fucktards. If their parents weren't so god damn permissive, then maybe their peers/teachers/siblings would have a shred of respect for them. The whole good ol' American rugged individualism is stupid. We don't have this self-made man crap there. You're a reflexion of your parents and their ability to be successful parents. The stringency of their actions is directly proportional to success and ultimately their ego. I know whenever my family gets together, it's a giant sausagefest. My son has done X, well my daughter has done Y. As vain as it may sound, education is the only way to move up the corporate ladder in most asian countries. The personality does not matter as much since competence>personality. An idea most of the western, white men and women on this site are not well accustomed to.
Does not having a personality make one happy? Or does happiness even matter?
It makes omega happy
The worst job in the world is better than being broke and homeless
He said successful, not happy.
Does he know how to make his own choices? Does he know what he wants to do when he graduates? Or will his parents decide what his career is? Is his whole life preplanned for him?
I'm asking out of curiosity. I don't mean it to sound snide.
Yet on the opposite end, this is all of course anecdotal experience, do you know what it feels like to only be told "I'm proud of you, son." when pulling off an accomplishment like graduating Summa Cum Laude for both a Bachelors degree and a Masters of Science degree in 5.5 years, yet be scolded or told "I'm disappointed in you." for not meeting the ridiculous standards set for a minor task like shoveling snow or raking leaves? Or being told your intended career path isn't good enough, etc. etc. more bullshit...Do you know what this can do to someone?
Or that happiness can be a factor in whether or not one is successful, or even one way of measuring it? Or how would you even gauge success when it comes to parenting? Would it be that your child has a good job, and makes a lot of money? What if they don't want what you would consider a good job, or don't really care for money? What if they do have those things, but they aren't happy and have several mental and emotional disorders, is that still success? Because honestly, personal experience here, when I hear either you, Lewk, or anyone else praise this article, or attempt to explain how it has good advice in it the first thought that comes to my mind is that you should probably fuck off, sterlize yourself, file some paperwork to ensure that you can't adopt either, and then stay a mile away from any children you might be expected to look after. Just my opinion though.
Anyone who does what she suggests should likely be incarcerated for child abuse.
. . .
We have personalities, this paper was one-sided. We, the children of "Chinese parents" always have the primal urge to speak back and lash out at them. We are individualistic enough to make out own choices, even in America, i don't yearn to be freed from this way of life. Many of my friends have discussed this, none of us feel as though our parental unit's have impeded on our ability to lead successful social lives. Most of us aren't as bland as the article made us out to be nor do we not have personalities, our parents are not our outlets. They are not showered with a torrent of complaints and woes.
Like I said, I do not think my parents have obstructed my social development I know socially awkward students and i am not one of them. Having conducted a case-study on these fine specimen, i know for a fact I am not a social outcast; therefore, i must have some form of personality.
There is a psychology term called "mere-exposure effect", i use to hate half my courses, while i do not rejoice studying for the tests now, after many years of repeated exposure, i've conditioned myself to not abhor them. According to psychology, i will one day love what i hate. Not too worried about it.
I just find the "do what you love and you'll do well" bullshit stupid. If most of us drop/dropped out of universities like Bill Gates, the majority would be currently homeless.
I do as a matter of fact. I am strictly prohibited from dating. I had a girlfriend for a year, did not do anything beyond kissing. It was stupid and suprficial and I ended it. There are better things I can do with my time. and of course, this relationship happened during school and strictly during school hours. No hanging out after school or dates or those bs couple things. If i had a fairly pretty girl last that long with only that, pretty sure i'm not a deadbeat. now i'm single, been singlefor like four years not because they impose the shackles of celibacy on me, but because i chose to remain single. I could go on and on as to which choices I made, but i realize i live in a different period, i just need to adapt and there is no cognitive dissonance going on.
reply later, i have four tests to study for.
People really want this moved to Debate?
I would sorta question any stats about Chinese mental illness or suicide. They have a cultural bias against any type of mental illness and have virtually no native mental health practices. Plus the whole government bureaucracy collecting stats on quality of life issues is built on lies.
Well, if you are happy with your life, Omega, then good for you. We all have different lives with different upbringings, so I guess some may thrive in such an environment.
I did see a few comments to the original article from others who "escaped" that life their parents chose for them, and are now ostracized from their family. Seems like most that I saw reply were middle daughters. The oldest child seems to be the one stuck in that life forever.
To add some more to the conversation: What about parents who praise their children so much that those kids become gluttons for praise? My life somewhat reflects that. I crave(d) praise so much that I do the best I can to hear what a good job I am, and for people to think good of me.*
*This has severely waned through the years as I realize I don't need to live up to others' standards as they themselves are imperfect and I am not a puppet. But I do admit I do love to hear positive things being said about me, and to bring positive feelings to others.
Not that my parents didn't discipline me or let me know when I did wrong, but they always made sure to point out the positives that I did. "I'm proud of you", "Great job", etc were not foreign in my upbringing.
They also let us find out what we were interested in. They may have had some influence by taking us to many museums and outings, but did not push anything on us. My sister loves astronomy, so we went to Cape Canaveral once on the way home from Disneyworld. We would stay up all night during meteor showers and lunar eclipses, no matter the temperature outside. I had a love for geology and marine biology; so we visited aquariums and went whale watching once. My brother had a love of music; we went to concerts and weren't limited on what type of music we could listen to. (The volume was another story)
We're all college graduates, have all held decent jobs. I can't attest to their happiness but I am happy. I now enjoy many facets of life due to their making me aware of things. But they never ever forced me to do a recreational activity, which is what I consider piano and such. All three of us kids did play an instrument throughout high school but we chose our instrument of choice. They did make us practice but that was because we had made a commitment to our peers when joining a group like band and orchestra.
Maybe that's why I have such a naive view of life in general? My parents weren't mean enough to me to give me the cynical edge so many others seem to have? I love life, I do the things I have interest in. I may not be the CEO of a company, but I have a nice home, a loving husband, and a beautiful child. I don't have debt other than a mortgage. I have stresses like any other, but they are my own and not trying to live up to someone else's expectations. I can fail today but try again tomorrow. And I can confide in my mother when I have failings, and she'll give me advice and be honest, but not hateful. I love that.
/anecdotal ramblings
You might want to reread that chapter about this effect. The mere-exposure effect means that the more often you come into contact with something, the higher the possibility you'll grow to like it.
There are some caveats, however: They first exposure MUST NOT be negative. If the first exposure was negative, the dislike will strengthen. So in your case I'd not be so sure that your hate turns to love...
Furthermore, the exposure to the stimulus must be short and temporally spaced - if exposure to the stimulus is continuous and massive, it will also lead to negative affective reactions.
(Sources are German Psychology books, so pardon me if you won't be able to read them).
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Love that comment:
"Thank you mommy for making my life abject hell!"You know what I've never ever done?
Thanked my super strict mother for anything she told me I'd thank her for later.
Mommies--there is no "I told you so" moment down the road where your kid shows you gratitude for making her every activity into an experiment in slavery.
Trust me on this one.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
THere are actually alot of comments from people who grew up in this sort of household in that link. They all have complexes or hate their parents. It was an interesting read.
Yeah, I'm not seeing much 'backpedaling' here. Seems like she's just saying more of the same. I am not impressed.
Exactly.
My only quibble is "trying your best." Since its inherently unmeasurable I don't like it as an objective. Praise without merit does have no meaning. Gen Y has been raised on being pampered and coddled too and the effects are obvious.
This term is entirely subjective in what can constitute "merit", and is going to vary from person to person. The article even discusses this, that some parents are okay with an A- whereas some are only happy with an A or A+. Perhaps some parents' system of merit includes trying and failing because in their eyes its better than not having tried at all. If you're going to try and debate why they are wrong, I could equally as well deconstruct how nothing you've done in your life has merited praise.
. . .
I think he does have a broad point about many American parents being satisfied with their kids failing classes as long as "they tried", and blaming teachers for not recognizing "effort", which has led to a horrible state of math and science knowledge in this country. Heck, I even had a student complain to me about their final grade, despite it reflecting test grades, because they "tried hard". I've been told similar stories by others here.
Hope is the denial of reality
Schooling is only one facet of life, and obviously both extremes of parenting have issues, but I don't see Lewk taking this route, moreso I'm seeing him agree with the article.
. . .
I think there are objective ways to measure effort. For example, looking at the normalized trajectory of student grades (as, say, percentile of the class) over the course of a semester is a decent way to see if there is significant improvement. Thus, even if early grades were abysmal but later ones were average or better, it might not be unreasonable to mark such a student up a grade from what their raw numbers might show - especially if the course material is cumulative, so later improvement implies a mastery of previous material that they originally didn't understand. I don't think this should turn a C student into an A student, but it could easily turn a C+ into a B- in my book. The first derivative of a student's performance matters IMO, and should be rewarded (or penalized).
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