School Choice

[Lewkowski]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-mom-ja...ry?id=12763654

An Ohio mother's attempt to provide her daughters with a better education has landed her behind bars.

Kelley Williams-Bolar was convicted of lying about her residency to get her daughters into a better school district.

"It's overwhelming. I'm exhausted," she said. "I did this for them, so there it is. I did this for them."

Williams-Bolar decided four years ago to send her daughters to a highly ranked school in neighboring Copley-Fairlawn School District.

But it wasn't her Akron district of residence, so her children were ineligible to attend school there, even though her father lived within the district's boundaries.

The school district accused Williams-Bolar of lying about her address, falsifying records and, when confronted, having her father file false court papers to get around the system.

Williams-Bolar said she did it to keep her children safe and that she lived part-time with her dad.

"When my home got broken into, I felt it was my duty to do something else," Williams-Bolar said.

While her children are no longer attending schools in the Copley-Fairlawn District, school officials said she was cheating because her daughters received a quality education without paying taxes to fund it.

"Those dollars need to stay home with our students," school district officials said.

The district hired a private investigator, who shot video showing Williams-Bolar driving her children into the district.

The school officials asked her to pay $30,000 in back tuition.

Williams-Bolar refused and was indicted and convicted of falsifying her residency records.

She was sentenced last week to 10 days in county jail and put on three years of probation.

She will also be required to perform community service, the Beacon Journal reported.

Williams-Bolar said she was being singled out.

"I don't think they wanted money ? ," Williams-Bolar said. "They wanted me to be an example."

Presiding Judge Patricia Cosgrove acknowledged as much.

"I felt that some punishment or deterrent was needed for other individuals who might think to defraud the various school districts," Cosgrove said.

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Wow just wow. It makes you wonder why liberals are so opposed to school vouchers doesn't it?

[Aimless]

Why the hell can't they just take the money she's paid in taxes to her own school district in payment? After all, her kids didn't go to that school, so they should be able to afford it.

[Enoch the Red]

It may have something to do with different areas having different property tax levels, which, at least where I live, is how schools get a large percentage of their funding.

[Lewkowski]

Why the hell can't they just take the money she's paid in taxes to her own school district in payment? After all, her kids didn't go to that school, so they should be able to afford it.

This is the governments logic. If you pay property taxes it goes to the school in the district you are in. Even if you go to another school or get home schooled or anything else, the school in your district still gets the money. Kinda stupid ain't it?

[agamemnus]

It may have something to do with different areas having different property tax levels, which, at least where I live, is how schools get a large percentage of their funding.

Except that $30,000 of taxes over a period of 4 years is $7,500, equivalent to perhaps a $700,000 house... it's just ridiculous.

[Enoch the Red]

Except that $30,000 of taxes over a period of 4 years is $7,500, equivalent to perhaps a $700,000 house... it's just ridiculous.

I'm not disagreeing.

[Ominous Gamer]

This mom was only days away from getting her own teaching certificate too, she actually worked for the school district she didn't trust keeping her daughters in.

This also has little to do with the intricacies of voucher funding (or property taxes), but I'm not one to expect Lewk to understand or acknowledge that.

[Lewkowski]

This mom was also only days away from getting her own teaching certificate too.

This also has little to do with the intricacies of voucher funding (or property taxes), but I'm not one to expect Lewk to understand or acknowledge that.

If we had a voucher system she wouldn't have gone to jail. Disagree?

[Ominous Gamer]

If we had a voucher system, the school system she was fleeing would be even worse off, and the system she fleed into would likely be packed to (or beyond) capacity. The justice system being fucked up has nothing to do with this; told you that you wouldn't get it.

Being convicted of a felony can usually fuck up one's day, and her career now.

[Lewkowski]

If we had a voucher system, the school system she was fleeing would be even worse off, and the system she fleed into would likely be packed to (or beyond) capacity. The justice system being fucked up has nothing to do with this; told you that you wouldn't get it.

Being convicted of a felony can usually fuck up one's day, and her career now.

Or should could take her dollars to the nice private school down the road whose expenses are smaller then the public school due to the school not having to deal with an absurd teachers union who cares far more about their benefits then in teaching children.

Why do you dislike the option of giving choice to parents? Or do you prefer the current situation where the quality of school you go to is determined by zip code?

[Ominous Gamer]

Or should could take her dollars to the nice private school down the road whose expenses are smaller then the public school due to the school not having to deal with an absurd teachers union who cares far more about their benefits then in teaching children.

Now we're starting to get at your agenda Still missing the point for why she moved her children (wasn't quality of school or teachers), but at least you're not trying to attack this sideways anymore.

do you prefer the current situation where the quality of school you go to is determined by zip code?

I dislike the idea of replacing a shit system with a shitter system.

[Dreadnaught]

The idea of school vouchers does imply the de-facto elimination of public education, but it doesn't mean the choice will be between terrible schools and overcrowded schools.

[Lebanese Dragon]

The wealthy areas schools get prefrence in funding no on wonder people from poor areas want to send their kids there. If it's all the same city, and the city was unbiased then these schools should get more balanced and proportional funding it's a lot of politics.

[Illusions]

Why do you dislike the option of giving choice to parents?

Parents can still homeschool their kids or take them to private school, except they will have to pay the full cost, instead of the government assisting with it. The only thing they can't do is take them to a different school district. That would require moving.

[Ominous Gamer]

The idea of school vouchers does imply the de-facto elimination of public education, but it doesn't mean the choice will be between terrible schools and overcrowded schools.

Perhaps not immediately, but thats what it is likely to trend towards, same as neighborhoods changing over time (except its accelerated by government funding this time), accounting for the pendulum effect.

[Lewkowski]

Parents can still homeschool their kids or take them to private school, except they will have to pay the full cost, instead of the government assisting with it. The only thing they can't do is take them to a different school district. That would require moving.

However they can't use the dollars that would have gone to the public school. That is the concept of vouchers. Money will be used to educate a child, right now if the child forgoes public schooling then that money is absorbed by the rest of the students who go to that school. This creates a situation where lower income families (or heck even middle class families) have extremely limited options. The most cost effective thing to do is just let the children go to the public school as opposed to paying for a superior education.

Vouchers solve this problem. It creates competition for schools to compete for educational dollars. It allows freedom to millions of parents who otherwise could not afford to choose their schools.

Of course the teachers union has fought tooth and nail to prevent vouchers from gaining any traction. Can you guess why?

[Dreadnaught]

No, that's wouldn't be the direction of the trend. How are you figuring this, OG?

[Ominous Gamer]

No, that's wouldn't be the direction of the trend. How are you figuring this, OG?

the already existing trends towards bettering oneself. The largest barrier towards entering these "better" schools is money. Vounchers remove a large part of that. You end up with a flood, waitlists, jockeying, to get into schools via a government check. You end up turning education into a formula of how the school can increase its bottom line, and with the voucher program that means higher intake (colleges already do this via states funding tutition [Bright Futures]). You end up with the have nots chasing the ones who have, with the ones who have trying to escape the have nots.

All the while destroying the schools that were largely a victim of circumstance outside their control.

[Dreadnaught]

Except schools expand and open up all the time -- it's not like the rug would be pulled from the "supply" of schools. People don't make these decisions overnight after all. And candidly, most parents are willing to deal with this tension in order to have a real way to push their kid's schools to be better.

Education isn't a zero sum game after all.

[Ominous Gamer]

Hopefully 3 quotes isn't to much for you to handle, because honestly, you're all over the fucking place, and most of the points you mentioned aren't wholely related to each other.

Except schools expand and open up all the time

but not at the pace of population growth, its always a reactive affair. Its why we have terms like double session. New schools are also built with property value and worth in mind. This isn't Simcity, you don't get one awesome school, build a second one beside it and end up with 2 awesome schools. You build where ever its cheapest to build after considering population trends and busing.
Hell, this doesn't even refute the problem of the have nots chasing the haves.

People don't make these decisions overnight after all.

No, they make these decisions once a year, and all at the same time. Both problematic.

And candidly, most parents are willing to deal with this tension in order to have a real way to push their kid's schools to be better.

I love this argument. Lets take money away from the already underfunded education system! Cause thats an awesome way to make the schools "be better". Although this is the main problem with vouchers, and really does need its own thread.

[Khendraja'aro]

Yeah, those private schools are just great!

I mean, they're private that must make them better automagically!

[agamemnus]

Perhaps not immediately, but thats what it is likely to trend towards, same as neighborhoods changing over time (except its accelerated by government funding this time), accounting for the pendulum effect.

In Massachusetts, schools get partially funded based on their test score (or test score improvement? not sure anymore) in the state student performance test called the MCAS.

Yeah, those private schools are just great!

I mean, they're private that must make them better automagically!

That's what U said. Strawman much?

[Lewkowski]

Yeah, those private schools are just great!

I mean, they're private that must make them better automagically!

Simple logic. Public schools are free. Private schools are not. Therefore something about private schools attracts parents to send their students their. In addition if Public was better a voucher system would do no harm to public schools since everyone would still send their kids to the public schools...

[Ominous Gamer]

In Massachusetts, schools get partially funded based on their test score (or test score improvement? not sure anymore) in the state student performance test called the MCAS.

All states have this now. Its part of No Child Left Behind, an entirely different problem since it rewards schools for pushing trouble students out before testing. Not to mention the worst performing schools (which would be the ones who need the most help), get screwed; in that it shares a shortcoming with the voucher program.

[Dreadnaught]

but not at the pace of population growth, its always a reactive affair. Its why we have terms like double session. New schools are also built with property value and worth in mind. This isn't Simcity, you don't get one awesome school, build a second one beside it and end up with 2 awesome schools. You build where ever its cheapest to build after considering population trends and busing.
Hell, this doesn't even refute the problem of the have nots chasing the haves.

No, they make these decisions once a year, and all at the same time. Both problematic.


I love this argument. Lets take money away from the already underfunded education system! Cause thats an awesome way to make the schools "be better". Although this is the main problem with vouchers, and really does need its own thread.

You're not making sense. Who the hell said anything about building adjacent schools? Quality schools will be built where there is demand for quality schools.

But more gallingly, you operate under the ludicrous idea that our education system is underfunded. Like with healthcare, Amerika has poured increasing amounts of money (above inflation and population growth) into our school system and gotten worse results.

Money isn't the problem. The problem is how it's being allocated, and the incentives (and disincentives) being erected around that funding.

[Illusions]

However they can't use the dollars that would have gone to the public school.

Neither can anyone else who doesn't have school age children. You seem to not understand the idea of a public resource. The parents aren't paying taxes so their children have a school to go to, they are paying taxes, like everyone else, so that children in general have a school to go to.

[agamemnus]

All states have this now. Its part of No Child Left Behind, an entirely different problem since it rewards schools for pushing trouble students out before testing. Not to mention the worst performing schools (which would be the ones who need the most help), get screwed; in that it shares a shortcoming with the voucher program.

Citation needed! You can't just push someone out of a school. Only way that happens is a disciplinary issue.

Not to mention the worst performing schools (which would be the ones who need the most help), get screwed.

Not really... I did some digging and I now know that MCAS system rewards per-student performance increases, not just raw performance.

http://www.doe.mass.edu/mcas/growth/

It tracks students through the school system and rewards those schools that enhanced the student's performance. It's not perfect though as these tests don't occur every year -- grade 9 and 11 are skipped. (the other grades have more time to fool around with MCAS prep... we wasted a lot of time on "learning" the MCAS test in our high school)

[Aimless]

Simple logic. Public schools are free. Private schools are not. Therefore something about private schools attracts parents to send their students their.

There's something that makes parents raise their kids as christians, jews, muslims, hindus, republicans, democrats, gay-haters, etc. Just because people choose it doesn't mean it's objectively good, it just reflects people's beliefs about it.

Of course it's possible that simply going to a private school increases your perceived worth (and your studiousness? ), regardless of the quality of the education. You know, it's just buying a signal.

[Ominous Gamer]

Quality schools will be built where there is demand for quality schools.

There are areas that don't demand quality schools? and even if there weren't...you understand this isn't always possible right (especially in already established neighborhoods)? and even if it was... its still a reactive affair?

[Ominous Gamer]

Citation needed! You can't just push someone out of a school. Only way that happens is a disciplinary issue.

Troubled students, the ones least interested in a proper education, the ones most likely to perform poorly on forced testing (maybe not because of skill, but because of attitude), the schools are being rewarded for pushing this students out before graduating. The at risk students, the studnts that perhaps need the most help in finding their direction, are now being ignored because of the risk they present to a schools NCLBA test scores.
Sometimes they are pushed, sometimes administration makes their life hell, sometimes they are expelled for bullshit. It all boils down to the samething.

http://www.education.com/magazine/ar...ut_rates_nclb/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-br...-_b_81354.html
http://scienceblog.com/15531/no-chil...hool-dropouts/
http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/...CA6533974.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0214080530.htm
http://dropoutnation.net/tag/no-child-left-behind-act/