South Dakota Moves To Legalize Killing Abortion Providers

[Dreadnaught]

@Steely and Nessus

See, this is actually a problem.

SD bill 'license to kill' abortion providers?

By CHET BROKAW
The Associated Press

PIERRE, S.D. — Efforts to expand South Dakota's definition of justifiable homicide to include killings that protect unborn children ran into opposition Tuesday, when one critic argued that recently added language could provide a "license to kill" abortion providers.

The bill's main sponsor, Rep. Phil Jensen, said the measure merely seeks to make self-defense laws consistent with other South Dakota laws that allow murder or manslaughter charges for the death of an unborn child.

"This has nothing to do with abortion. This is a self-defense bill," Jensen, R-Rapid City, told The Associated Press.

The bill originally sought to allow a pregnant woman to use force to protect her unborn child without being prosecuted for homicide or assault. But in a committee hearing last week, lawmakers broadened the bill to also allow a woman's relatives to claim justifiable homicide if they killed someone to protect the unborn child.

Rep. Peggy Gibson said that could allow someone to claim self-defense for killing abortion providers, including doctors, nurses and other staff at abortion clinics.

"If this bill passes, in theory it would allow a woman's father, mother, son, daughter or husband to kill anyone who tried to provide that woman with an abortion. It's a license to kill abortion providers," said Gibson, D-Huron.

Gibson also feared that the language in the bill would allow extremists to kill abortion doctors and then claim they did so to protect an unborn child.

That was the defense used by anti-abortion activist Scott Roeder, who fatally shot Dr. George Tiller — one of the nation's few late-term abortion providers — inside a Kansas church in May 2009. Roeder, who is serving life in prison, argued during his murder trial that the shooting was justified because he was saving the lives of unborn children.

Jensen said his proposal wouldn't allow such defenses. He said self-defense can be used against illegal attacks, not against legal acts such as abortion.

"This provides a defense not only for (the pregnant woman), but also for someone coming to the aid of her unborn child, the defense of her unborn child," Jensen said.

Jensen said he planned to talk with Attorney General Marty Jackley on Wednesday about the bill's language.

Under the bill, homicide would be justifiable if committed in the lawful defense of an unborn child or to prevent harm likely to result in the death of an unborn child. The bill was expected to be debated in the South Dakota House on Wednesday.

Gibson said she planned to propose an amendment making it clear that the measure couldn't be used as a defense against killing abortion providers.

She also said the bill opens up the possibility that a pregnant woman could kill her boyfriend or husband if they get into a dispute and the man shoves or punchers her.

"It's an open invitation to allow every domestic dispute involving a pregnant woman to escalate into justifiable homicide," Gibson said. "If she feels she's protecting her unborn child, she can shoot him and it's justifiable."

Gibson said the bill would essentially justify murder, adding: "We're taking South Dakota back into the cave age, the Neanderthal age."

___

February 15, 2011 09:49 PM EST


http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world...to-839902.html

[GGT]

This isn't a new problem, Dread. Just another state trying to change abortion laws, by making secondary laws. Why didn't you post something about Kansas, or the murder of Dr. Tiller?

That was the defense used by anti-abortion activist Scott Roeder, who fatally shot Dr. George Tiller — one of the nation's few late-term abortion providers — inside a Kansas church in May 2009. Roeder, who is serving life in prison, argued during his murder trial that the shooting was justified because he was saving the lives of unborn children.

No wonder you didn't make the connections (in the other thread) about bills re-defining rape or incest, and the federal government NOT paying for abortions.

[Wraith]

This isn't a new problem, Dread. Just another state trying to change abortion laws, by making secondary laws.

No, this is another case of a poorly worded law that would have unintended consequences.

[Dreadnaught]

No wonder you didn't make the connections (in the other thread) about bills re-defining rape or incest, and the federal government NOT paying for abortions.

My point is this is entirely different. The other bill didn't re-define anything.

This bill is specifically seeking to re-define something, and the bill's sponsor is defending this broad interpretation.

[GGT]

My point is this is entirely different. The other bill didn't re-define anything.

This bill is specifically seeking to re-define something, and the bill's sponsor is defending this broad interpretation.

Probably why that thread went on for pages, huh. It's clearly another attempt at changing abortion laws, and taking the whole mess to the supreme court to reverse Roe v Wade.

[Wraith]

My point is this is entirely different. The other bill didn't re-define anything.

This bill is specifically seeking to re-define something, and the bill's sponsor is defending this broad interpretation.

He's not defending that interpretation, he's denying its validity:

Jensen said his proposal wouldn't allow such defenses. He said self-defense can be used against illegal attacks, not against legal acts such as abortion.

[GGT]

It's still just another way to get Abortion into the public dialogue.

[GGT]

So what is going on here, anyway? If the GOP ran on fiscal issues and jobs, why are their first bills related to birth control and abortion?

[Ominous Gamer]

To quote Huckabee, "abortion is the most important issue in the country."
Yeah, not the economy, not the 2 wars. Abortion.

And they don't even want to come at from the right angle. Sex education, contraception methods, better funding for adoption and foster care units.

Guess positive support just ain't in the budget, but there appears to be plenty of room for hatred and fear.

[Nessus]

@Steely and Nessus

Honest to goodness, when I read about this and some analysis on it, I fully expected that would I post this thread with this title, you'd jump down my throat and make all sorts of Pubbie hurgle-burgle.

The bill says you can use deathly force on someone unlawfully harming a woman in a way as to destroy the "unborn baby" (SD phrasing there); abortion isn't illegal in SD. You can't kill an abortion doctor any more than you can kill your own chemo therapist in SD under this new law. What is a problem is that SD has one (1) abortion clinic, which operates on the good will of one (1) out-of-state doctor who flies in one a month or something to perform operations. That this bill can be seen as a green light by some fuck-stick to kill said doctor? Very possible. But the same fuck-sticks have been killing abortion doctors for decades already. The problem is that while SD only has so many people, effectively the state has been, for a long time, in a situation where thousands of desperate women have not had real access to abortion. That their hate-mongering, right-wing ding-bat officials want to drown out the noise caused by their severe budget cuts by pandering to the anti-abortion hysteria manifesting itself in a meaningless bill is hardly a problem in that state.

[GGT]

WASHINGTON — The House has approved a Republican proposal to block federal aid for Planned Parenthood.

The 240-185 vote on Friday is a victory for anti-abortion forces led by Indiana GOP Rep. Mike Pence. He says taxpayer money should not go to groups that provide or promote abortion.

"This afternoon's vote is a victory for taxpayers and a victory for life," Pence said Friday. "By banning funding to Planned Parenthood, Congress has taken a stand for millions of Americans who believe their tax dollars should not be used to subsidize the largest abortion provider in America."

Democrats say Planned Parenthood provides contraception and other valuable family planning services, and that cutting off the money will make it hard for women to get such basic help.

Planned Parenthood provides services in hundreds of clinics around the country. Pence aides say the group reported receiving $363 million in federal money in its latest report.

The proposal is part of a bill that seeks to cut government spending this year.

The Democratic-run Senate has stronger abortion rights views than does the House, making it unlikely the House proposal will survive.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41669274...-capitol_hill/


It's not just SD, but congressional GOP. The Hyde Amendment just wasn't enough, they want to totally de-fund Planned Parenthood.

[Dreadnaught]

In a time of fiscal crisis, it's not surprising that people who think abortion is murder don't want federal funding going towards abortions.

I support the right to abortion and think there's a compelling case for subsidized abortions, but I don't see this move as entirely surprising or extremist.

[Nessus]

Too bad the voters who don't want to subsidize killing brown people can't have representation in D.C.

[Nessus]

"I know a lot about having black babies. I've had three of them. And I had my first one when I was eighteen years old, at the ripe old age of eighteen. An unplanned pregnancy. And let me tell you, I went into labor unfortunately on New Year's Eve. I had not even one dime. Phone calls cost a dime at that time, I didn't have a phone in my home. I didn't have a dime to go to the phone booth to call an ambulance, an ambulance, which is a waste of money, using Medicaid dollars, but I didn't have a car and I didn't have cab fare. I just want to tell you a little bit about what it's like to not have planned parenthood. You have to add water to the formula. You have to give your kids ramen noodles at the end of the month to fill up their little bellies so they won't cry. You have to give them mayonnaise sandwiches. They get very few fresh fruits and vegetables, because they're expensive. It subjects children to low educational attainment because of the ravages of poverty. You know, one of the biggest problems that school districts have in educating some of these poor black children, who are unplanned, is that they're mobile, they're constantly moving, because they can't pay the rent.

And yes, I heard many of you talk about sexual predators, it subjects them to sexual predators, as when you try to go out to do a little work, you have to leave your kids with just anybody, 'cause you don't have $800-1200/month for childcare.

And let me tell you: the public policy has treated poor children and women who have not had the benefit of planned parenthood with utter contempt. These same children, it has been very difficult to get them health insurance through [???]. When you go to the grocery store, to buy them a little birthday cake with your food stamps, everyone stares at you in contempt. And yes, on a bipartisan basis, Democrats and Republicans ended the entitlement Aid to Families with Dependent Children. So that when we have a recession like we have now, women --who are alone, typically-- poor, of color, with these poor black children, have no money, go months and months and months with little or nothing to sustain themselves. And you know, I recall that the first item on the YouCut website was to cut Temporary Assistance to Needy Families.

And let me tell you what it does to women who cannot plan their parenthood. It derails their ability to complete education and training, so that they can get a job. The TANF law is very harsh, it won't even let women complete high school diplomas. It sends them into workfare programs at very low wage service industries, often jobs with no unemployment benefits, and of course they're treated with contempt and disdain when they apply for any aid. They're humiliated.

And so I would beg my colleagues to not defund Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood is healthy for women, it's healthy for children, it's healthy for our society.

e: Planned parenthood services

[Ominous Gamer]

New York, New York (Feb. 21, 2011) – A billboard that reads, "The most dangerous place for an African American is in the womb," has been placed in the heart of SoHo by Life Always™ as a part of a new national campaign to expose the truth about how Planned Parenthood targets minority neighborhoods as they perform over 300,000 abortions a year. This particular billboard is about half a mile from a Planned Parenthood abortion facility. Life Always board member Stephen Broden said that Planned Parenthood has had a devastating effect on the sustainability of the African American population."

stupid wankers

[Hazir]

Still it is interesting to see how timid American politicians are when it comes to real fiscal prudence; in Europe you hear of austerity plans that really cut. Not just into pet programs of this or that focus group, but into entitlements and even in the most volatile places (say Greece) that doesn't lead to politicians being strung up. I really wonder why we have this huge difference. Especially if you take into account that the Tea Crazies were voted in to reduce the fiscal irresponsability.

[GGT]

In a time of fiscal crisis, it's not surprising that people who think abortion is murder don't want federal funding going towards abortions.

I support the right to abortion and think there's a compelling case for subsidized abortions, but I don't see this move as entirely surprising or extremist.

Planned Parenthood already can't use federal funds for the abortion they do provide. The Hyde Amendment is law of the land---no federal funding for abortions.

The GOP is trying to defund Planned Parenthood as a group that provides abortion services, even though their main services are for birth control and women's health care.

They'd shut PP clinics offering poor women PAP smears, breast exams, treatment of STDs and birth control.....as a way of limiting abortions services for anyone. Then they'll complain about poor women having babies, and propose reduced funding for Medicaid, WIC, TANF and other welfare services.

[Dreadnaught]

e: Planned parenthood services

Bad data, come on Nessus. That chart is talking about the delivery of "services", which could be as simple as giving someone some free condoms. Planned Parenthood doesn't really give any insight into how much of its money goes to abortions, it's classified in their Annual Report as part of the "medical services" they spend most of their money on.

http://i.imgur.com/KiRj2.jpg[/shot]
stupid wankers

Dude, this is clearly in reference to the controversy we've been having in New York about the extremely high proportion of African-American pregnancies that are terminated.

http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=1660

Planned Parenthood already can't use federal funds for the abortion they do provide. The Hyde Amendment is law of the land---no federal funding for abortions.

The Hyde Amendment applies to Medicaid spending, not separate funding for Planned Parenthood. PP has built a massive national business around this. It's a worthwhile enterprise. But trying to pretend that abortion services are a major chunk of what they do doesn't help.

[Nessus]

Bad data, come on Nessus. That chart is talking about the delivery of "services", which could be as simple as giving someone some free condoms. Planned Parenthood doesn't really give any insight into how much of its money goes to abortions, it's classified in their Annual Report as part of the "medical services" they spend most of their money on.

It's not bad data, if anything it's the most germane data this discussion can have. I would expect an abortion to cost phenomenally more money than a condom, and perhaps more than cancer screening. Certainly more than STD testing. The amount of money spent on a marginal portion of the services of PP, abortions, shouldn't invalidate the extremely valuable services they do offer, contraception and care for STD and detecting cancer victims. That you are so willing to shut down contraception and STD services to the poor under the moral hand-wringing of the religious ding-bats is stereotypical Pubbie behaviour, though.

Fine, to sit by and watch them get shut down.

[Dreadnaught]

I'm not willing to shut-down Planned Parenthood, I think it's a worthwhile enterprise. The preventative care, education and testing they provide is extremely valuable.

But I'm also not willing to pretend that they don't spend a significant amount of their resources on abortions. They get 33% of their money from the government, thus it's not surprising that their activities are being politicized.

[Nessus]

I'm not pretending they do either, in fact I explicitly said above that I'd expect that's where a lot of their money goes. And I for one am all for abortions, too, but the point I tried to make is that once again religious right-wing fuck-wads are destroying valuable public services. And for what? Golden handshakes to Goldman-Sachs? There was an article in the Rolling Stone that I couldn't read through because I got too mad, but the point was no one is ever going to interfere with the horse-shit economy-ruiners running the show in the US financial system. But we can't spare a few measly millions to give abortions to black people? Give me a break.

[Ominous Gamer]

Dude, this is clearly in reference to the controversy we've been having in New York about the extremely high proportion of African-American pregnancies that are terminated.

dude! You like totally missed the message in both links, dude!

[Nessus]

dude! You like totally missed the message in both links, dude!

Let him use dude. It'll devolve into bro if you keep this up, and I will have to put him on ignore once that happens.

[GGT]

The Hyde Amendment applies to Medicaid spending, not separate funding for Planned Parenthood. PP has built a massive national business around this. It's a worthwhile enterprise. But trying to pretend that abortion services are a major chunk of what they do doesn't help.

I'm not willing to shut-down Planned Parenthood, I think it's a worthwhile enterprise. The preventative care, education and testing they provide is extremely valuable.

But I'm also not willing to pretend that they don't spend a significant amount of their resources on abortions. They get 33% of their money from the government, thus it's not surprising that their activities are being politicized.

You're sounding as ridiculous as the GOP. Do you really think PP doesn't keep bookkeeping records, to show their abortion services are NOT provided to Medicaid recipients (or the military), unless they pay out-of-pocket?

[Dreadnaught]

dude! You like totally missed the message in both links, dude!

No I'm not, bro. The poster resonates not just because of the bogus idea that Planned Parenthood "targets" minority neighborhoods, but because African Americans have a very high abortion rate and this is an ongoing topic of conversation here in NYC.

You're sounding as ridiculous as the GOP. Do you really think PP doesn't keep bookkeeping records, to show their abortion services are NOT provided to Medicaid recipients (or the military), unless they pay out-of-pocket?

I think you're unintentionally blurring the actual issue. I'm not saying Planned Parenthood is taking Medicaid money for abortions. They can't. But they can give highly subsidized abortions to people who received Medicaid for other things. Planned Parenthood gets 33% of its budget from government line items, which at the very least frees-up more of their private donations to pay for subsidized abortions.

I'm not pretending they do either, in fact I explicitly said above that I'd expect that's where a lot of their money goes. And I for one am all for abortions, too, but the point I tried to make is that once again religious right-wing fuck-wads are destroying valuable public services. And for what? Golden handshakes to Goldman-Sachs? There was an article in the Rolling Stone that I couldn't read through because I got too mad, but the point was no one is ever going to interfere with the horse-shit economy-ruiners running the show in the US financial system. But we can't spare a few measly millions to give abortions to black people? Give me a break.

You realize we're in agreement, right? I'm just not willing to demonize people for being very anti-abortion.

[GGT]

I think you're unintentionally blurring the actual issue. I'm not saying Planned Parenthood is taking Medicaid money for abortions. They can't. But they can give highly subsidized abortions to people who received Medicaid for other things. Planned Parenthood gets 33% of its budget from government line items, which at the very least frees-up more of their private donations to pay for subsidized abortions.

The actual issue is the GOP trying various ways to limit (if not outright eradicate) a legal medical service for women---abortion---by defunding PP for ALL its services. It's got nothing to do with fiscal responsibility or cutting federal spending that matters, but everything to do with their pro-life agenda.

May as well say Medicaid recipients can't use a public hospital pharmacy for any prescription, if they also fill Plan B or Morning After prescriptions, and they accepted federal funds to build the hospital.

[Ominous Gamer]

No I'm not, bro. The poster resonates not just because of the bogus idea that Planned Parenthood "targets" minority neighborhoods, but because African Americans have a very high abortion rate and this is an ongoing topic of conversation here in NYC.

Not to burst your bubble, but 300,00 abortions aren't performed in NYC alone. We know you have issues understanding the outside world, but this isn't a NYC only thing. Thats the message you missed. See, the idea of the internet is that you can access sites from almost anywhere. That website thatsabortion, thats accessible from outside NYC, they even address this as a nationwade issue on their homepage

There is a battle being waged in the United States that has taken more lives than any foreign war or act of terrorism. The enemy is abortion. Its' supporters include the main stream media, liberal representatives in government, and Planned Parenthood, the country's largest abortion provider.

Let him use dude. It'll devolve into bro if you keep this up, and I will have to put him on ignore once that happens.

but its so hypocritical he rants againist khen's style in one of the other active threads, but this by far his most common reaction when he makes a defensive post.

[GGT]

Maybe PP wouldn't be the 'single largest provider' of abortion services, if pro-lifers hadn't run other women's reproductive clinics out of town.

[Nessus]

You realize we're in agreement, right? I'm just not willing to demonize people for being very anti-abortion.

Which is a god-damned curious juxtaposition given where we live.

And please don't use 'bro'

[GGT]

Hey, how about some of these smart ad banners. Now I'm getting "Stand with Michele Bachman to defund Planned Parenthood"....after a Planned Parenthood logo