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Thread: Low scores don't deter Wis. voucher supporters

  1. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post

    Arguably, the Yeshivas could be accredited if they incorporated other types of courses. Or a private school could be set-up that would rival the Yeshivas by including both intensive religious study and secular studies that could be applied to the working world.
    Sure. And if Wal-mart changed its labor and business practices it could be considered a responsible company. But it's not doing that and neither are they. As long as we're talking about what could happen, they could all spontaneously convert to Hinduism, turn all the yeshivas into an ashram, become disillusioned, turn to secularism and push their public school district into becoming the highest performer in the state. I care about what they're actually doing, which is trying to turn a secular public school district into a parochial Hasidic one, ignoring the interests and needs of anyone else in the community.

    What's clear is they are getting nothing from the existing public school system, but feel that they can dismantle it because they are paying for it. What they are doing is terrible, but there is an underlying issue here concerning how tax collections are being distributed under the status-quo system.
    Maybe I'm mistaken, but like in most areas the school system there is funded primarily through taxes collected by the STATE, right? Which it will still be collecting, no matter what they do locally?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  2. #212
    About half of school funding in NY state comes through local taxes. 47% to be exact. My point is the status quo leaves the religious Jews with two options: pay for schools they feel aren't appropriate for their kids, or take-over the school boards to dismantle the public schools to lower property taxes.

    There is pretty significant stratification in the religious Jewish community. Many would possibly prefer a religious Jewish private school instead of a strictly theological Yeshiva. If a voucher system required students -- even in eligible religious schools -- to take certain types of courses or lose their accreditation, doesn't that seem like a better compromise than the nuttiness happening here?

  3. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    About half of school funding in NY state comes through local taxes. 47% to be exact. My point is the status quo leaves the religious Jews with two options: pay for schools they feel aren't appropriate for their kids, or take-over the school boards to dismantle the public schools to lower property taxes.

    There is pretty significant stratification in the religious Jewish community. Many would possibly prefer a religious Jewish private school instead of a strictly theological Yeshiva. If a voucher system required students -- even in eligible religious schools -- to take certain types of courses or lose their accreditation, doesn't that seem like a better compromise than the nuttiness happening here?
    Many things are probably better than the active dismantling of the school system, that doesn't mean they're good, or even constitutional, and it doesn't mean they're what should be happening. You understand this is de facto segregation, right?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  4. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    How does vouchers deprive anyone of an education
    Because I don't consider a religious education to be equivalent to even a poor public school education. I'm uncertain of how this was unclear in my post. In fact I think I've pointed out in the past that I consider an orthodox/conservative/evangelical etc. religious only education to be tantamount to child abuse. If I educated my hypothetical child to think that the word blue referred to red, cows go quack, 1 + 1 = square, that the Sun orbits the Earth because a magic elf moves it through the sky, and that people with hazel eyes were less than human, and isolated them from contradictory information, once found out you'd likely strip me of my rights as a parent. I consider this to be equivalent.
    . . .

  5. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Many things are probably better than the active dismantling of the school system, that doesn't mean they're good, or even constitutional, and it doesn't mean they're what should be happening. You understand this is de facto segregation, right?
    I understand the reality of the status quo is de-facto segregation and nothing is going to change that. But may as well stop this de-facto race war being fought over school funding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Because I don't consider a religious education to be equivalent to even a poor public school education. I'm uncertain of how this was unclear in my post. In fact I think I've pointed out in the past that I consider an orthodox/conservative/evangelical etc. religious only education to be tantamount to child abuse. If I educated my hypothetical child to think that the word blue referred to red, cows go quack, 1 + 1 = square, that the Sun orbits the Earth because a magic elf moves it through the sky, and that people with hazel eyes were less than human, and isolated them from contradictory information, once found out you'd likely strip me of my rights as a parent. I consider this to be equivalent.
    If you think that is what most religiously-run education is about you're wrong. The people in this town are being pulled between a hard-core religious education with little/no secular component and a public education that doesn't foster the religious environment they want for their kids.

    BTW, as far I can tell at least one of the Yeshivas (Ohr Reuven) does at least claim to include secular education as a component in its studies.

  6. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Yes, we know, the obsessing over the Koch brothers is all the rage now. It took the left a decade to find a corporate bogeyman to match up with the right's irrational fear/hatred of George Soros.
    If I were better at Photoshop, I'd make a blend of Beck and Tyra to post here. But seriously, 'dude', you can't be this dim.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  7. #217
    Surely you can't be this dim. Basically no one heard of the Koch brothers until late last year when the New Yorker wrote a giant article about how they are basically the right's George Soros. Since then, they are fracking everywhere for left-wingers. Search volume has exploded from nothing. They are accused of bankrolling the governor of Wisconsin. The New York Times has 10,000 references to the Koch Brothers in the past 30 days alone across its various pages. Random groups are sprouting up to basically harass them.

    And now here we are, with some people saying their $1.5 million professorship to a random university in Florida is somehow more nefarious and influential than George Soros' $60 million academic center. You can't be so dim as to not recognize the hyperbole surrounding the Koch brothers, because it's the same hyperbole surrounding George Soros.

  8. #218
    Wait, something becomes an irrational fear because the general public wasn't aware of it? The FSU deal is over 3 years old and just now coming to light. Thats a pretty piss poor way to go about gauging things, based on how public they they are from the get go

    I knew the Koch connection would be to good a tangent and end up distracting from the problems of schools relying on donations
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  9. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    And now here we are, with some people saying their $1.5 million professorship to a random university in Florida is somehow more nefarious and influential than George Soros' $60 million academic center. You can't be so dim as to not recognize the hyperbole surrounding the Koch brothers, because it's the same hyperbole surrounding George Soros.
    This is so weird, wikipedia says they've spent 100 million dollars on spreading their madness here and there!!! But wiki is sponsored by leftists so...
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  10. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Surely you can't be this dim. Basically no one heard of the Koch brothers until late last year when the New Yorker wrote a giant article about how they are basically the right's George Soros. Since then, they are fracking everywhere for left-wingers. Search volume has exploded from nothing. They are accused of bankrolling the governor of Wisconsin. The New York Times has 10,000 references to the Koch Brothers in the past 30 days alone across its various pages. Random groups are sprouting up to basically harass them.

    And now here we are, with some people saying their $1.5 million professorship to a random university in Florida is somehow more nefarious and influential than George Soros' $60 million academic center. You can't be so dim as to not recognize the hyperbole surrounding the Koch brothers, because it's the same hyperbole surrounding George Soros.
    Geez, I didn't mean to upset you

    I don't think it hyperbole when they've literally been able to buy union-busting and other corporate welfare favours from both sides of the fence. I don't pay as close attention to mainstream US media as you do (for reasons that ought be obvious!), but they've been on the radar for some time. Obviously not as long as King of the Champagne Socialists, but that's neither here or there. It seems incredibly naive to just draw parallels like this willy-nilly in order to dismiss uncomfortable facts.

    (Of course the facts about Soros are uncomfortable to Pubbies, because he's not 100% behind the myopic greed cum bigotry the GOP demands from its adherents, so you got me there I guess?)

    And stop dog-whistling with "some people", "folks" and whatever yokelisms you happen to like this week. Loki may be abrasive when he calls "pinkos" out, but at least he has that McCarthy straight-forwardness about him.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  11. #221
    And Soros doesn't do these same things (in the opposite direction)?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #222
    The opposites of greed and bigotry sound like good things to me?

    (One-liners again!)
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  13. #223
    I just find it ironic that you're now directing the same kind of vitriol against a pair of right-wing billionaires that the right has been directing against Soros. And both of you are doing it due to the billionaires having "too much influence". I guess the billionaires on your side can't be considered to be too influential: after all, they're lobbying for the policies you support.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  14. #224
    Yes, of course. It's sad that money can buy legislation stripping away human rights. It's a little bit sad that one has to buy legislation helping other people. You're a social darwinist at heart, you love going on about incentives; tell me, which incentives does big money have vis a vis legislation? Pro-big business, or pro-human rights? Think fast, it's a doozy.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  15. #225
    Once you have a billion dollars, the value of an additional dollar sharply decreases. And having that billion allows you to pursue your ideological goals, which might or might not be consistent with your financial interest. There are quite a few millionaires and billionaires calling for higher taxes on the rich you know.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #226
    And I want more!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  17. #227
    This will get uglier.

    MAY 18, 2011, 1:13 PM ET

    Yeshiva Supporters Keep Control of Suburban District

    The Orthodox Jewish candidates will retain control of the East Ramapo school board, winning three seats in a bitterly fought race against so-called “public school candidates.”

    Before the election, the nine-member board consisted of six Orthodox members, one of whom recently resigned. All of the Orthodox trustees educate their children in private religious schools called yeshivas.

    Their opponents and critics in the community contend that the Orthodox board members give priority to the district’s overwhelming number of private school students. The opposition candidates were hoping to win back a majority on a school board that has been controlled by Orthodox members since 2005.

    Situated about 35 miles northwest of New York City in Rockland County, the East Ramapo district faces an unusual situation. Its public student population of roughly 8,100 is dwarfed by a private student population of about 20,000. The majority of private students are educated in yeshivas.

    The Orthodox slate won by about 2,000 votes each, according to unofficial results from the district clerk. Incumbent Moshe Hopstein beat Peggy Hatton, Yehuda Weissmandl defeated Antonio Luciano and Daniel Beno Schwartz edged out Brenda Carole Anderson.

    JoAnne Thompson, who was appointed to the board last year, ran unopposed. Hatton, Anderson, Luciano and Thompson had campaigned together as part of the East Ramapo Stakeholders for Public Education.

    One of the issues driving critics is the closure of two public schools in recent years. One has been leased to two yeshivas, another was slated to be sold to a yeshiva before a complaint was filed with school officials. The sale is on hold pending a review of the complaint.

    Members of the Orthodox community complain about high property taxes and say they have a vested interest in ensuring private schools received mandated services.

    District clerk Cathy Russell said about 18,000 out of 50,500 voters turned out for the election, a relatively high turn-out compared to previous years. Voters also defeated the $200.5 million budget for the 2011-12 school year.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011...hool-district/

  18. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The Koch brothers paying for a $1.5 million professorship is somehow more nefarious and influential than George Soros buying a $60 million international political research and outreach group at Bard?

    None of this really has much to do with vouchers BTW.
    It's germane to big money lobbying/buying education policy-makers, and funding. Maybe more important than vouchers. What good is a newfangled "distribution" method if it's laid on top of a dysfunctional foundation?



    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Surely you can't be this dim. Basically no one heard of the Koch brothers until late last year when the New Yorker wrote a giant article about how they are basically the right's George Soros. Since then, they are fracking everywhere for left-wingers. Search volume has exploded from nothing. They are accused of bankrolling the governor of Wisconsin. The New York Times has 10,000 references to the Koch Brothers in the past 30 days alone across its various pages. Random groups are sprouting up to basically harass them.

    And now here we are, with some people saying their $1.5 million professorship to a random university in Florida is somehow more nefarious and influential than George Soros' $60 million academic center. You can't be so dim as to not recognize the hyperbole surrounding the Koch brothers, because it's the same hyperbole surrounding George Soros.
    The Koch brothers have been covered since the '08 election, when they created "Tea Party" PACs meant to look like local grass roots groups. They were among the first to exploit IRS rules for "small business" employing less than 500, and using 527s to their advantage. To operate under the radar. Their oil and financial industry lobbying connections were covered as well, after the BP Gulf oil rig explosion, and investigations into regulation and funding conflicts of interest.

    Not just by NYT. The first I heard of them was from CNBC-msnbc and WSJ-marketwatch. Soros most likely uses his billions to influence policy and education too, but at least his academic center is clearly a separate and private entity. If he (or anyone, including Buffet) demanded their hiring and curriculum preference in state schools, in exchange for their money, the same complaint applies. Just as it applies to orthodox Jews trying to manipulate public education for their agenda.

  19. #229
    It's a separate and private entity? It's clearly a left-wing international policy center that bears his name.

    Once again,


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Exactly. Look, every professor has biases. Some professors have a known public bias and others don't. Universities are full of professors with opinions. The professor whose job is endowed by a particular individual/group (and everyone knows it) is the last person who is going to be a secret stalking-horse in academia.

    But ultimately, the point of funding a professorship is a charitable gift. The Koch brothers are just the latest victims of a spate of left-wing conspiracy theories (much like George Soros is to the right).
    When it comes to vouchers and Orthodox Juice...Soros has little involvement as far as I'm aware.

  20. #230
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...Tabs%3Darticle

    MEDINA, Ohio—Karen Dombi was thrilled when her three oldest children were picked for student government this year—not because she envisioned careers in politics, but because it was one of the few programs at their public high school that didn't charge kids to participate.


    Medina City Schools are in deep financial trouble. To save their vaunted athletic and music programs, the district has enacted a policy that no one in the administration feels good about: Pay to play. WSJ's Stephanie Simon reports from Medina, Ohio.

    Budget shortfalls have prompted Medina Senior High to impose fees on students who enroll in many academic classes and extracurricular activities. The Dombis had to pay to register their children for basic courses such as Spanish I and Earth Sciences, to get them into graded electives such as band, and to allow them to run cross-country and track. The family's total tab for a year of public education: $4,446.50.

    "I'm wondering, am I going to be paying for my parking spot at the school? Because you're making me pay for just about everything else," says Ms. Dombi, a parent in this middle-class community in northern Ohio.

    Public schools across the country, struggling with cuts in state funding, rising personnel costs and lower tax revenues, are shifting costs to students and their parents by imposing or boosting fees for everything from enrolling in honors English to riding the bus.

    At high schools in several states, it can cost more than $200 just to walk in the door, thanks to registration fees, technology fees and unspecified "instructional fees."


    Though public schools have long charged for extras such as driver's education and field trips, many are now asking parents to pay for supplies needed to take core classes—from biology-lab safety goggles to algebra workbooks to the printer ink used to run off grammar exercises in language arts. In some schools, each class comes with a price tag, to be paid at registration. Some schools offer installment plans for payment. Others accept credit cards—for a processing fee.

    Public-school administrators say the fees—some of which are waived for low-income families—allow them to continue to offer specialty classes and activities that would otherwise fall to the budget ax. Some parents support that approach, saying they'd rather pay for honors physics or drama than see those opportunities eliminated altogether.

    Some educators, too, argue that fees are good public policy. In a time of fiscal austerity, they say it's not fair to ask taxpayers to fund an all-inclusive education that offers Advanced Placement Art History, junior varsity golf and fourth-year German with little regard for the cost.

    The proliferation of fees comes at a time when the cost of public education has been soaring. After adjusting for inflation, average spending per pupil has increased 44% over the past two decades, according to the U.S. Department of Education.

    Personnel costs—which amount to about 80% of expenses in many school districts—have driven some of the increase, along with increased costs for utilities and technology. The average salary for a public-school teacher nationally has jumped 26% since 2001, though that growth didn't quite keep pace with inflation.

    At the same time, school revenue has plunged, mostly due to cutbacks in state funding. Squeezed by lower tax revenue and higher expenses for programs such as Medicaid, states have cut education funding by a collective $17 billion in the past two fiscal years, though some of that was backfilled by the federal stimulus.

    Large additional cuts are on the table this fiscal year in many states, among them California, Texas, Florida and Colorado.

    Nationally, district after district has eliminated or cut enrichment programs for gifted students, help for struggling readers, advanced math and science courses, music, art, foreign languages, drama, sports. Some have tried asking local residents to approve higher taxes, only to be shot down at the polls. So administrators say fees are the only way to stave off even more drastic cuts.

    "Things are getting tighter," said Collene Van Noord, superintendent of the Palmyra Area School District in southeast Pennsylvania, which recently began charging $20 lab fees for many science, art and music courses. "If we can pass on the added costs for some of our more expensive courses to direct users, it seems more fair than to pass them on to the entire community" in the form of tax hikes, she said.


    Dombi Family
    BAND FEE: $200. Because of new fees at Medina Senior High, Tessa Dombi, a freshman, had to choose between band and choir.

    Most states prohibit public schools from charging for core classes. But schools can generally charge for supplemental materials, a category that has been broadly defined. In Iowa, for instance, paper is considered "not essential to the teacher's presentation of a course," and thus need not be provided at public expense, the state Department of Education website explains.

    A 52% increase in some fees this year at the Blue Valley School District in Overland Park, Kan., means a typical high-school student now owes $235 at enrollment, plus supplies fees as high as $65 a class. The tab will be similar next year at Wheaton North High School in Wheaton, Ill., after a recent fee hike: $221 for baseline registration plus $150 per sport and class fees as high as $50 each.

    Here in Medina, the charges imposed on the Dombi family's four children include $75 in generic school fees, $118.50 for materials used in biology, physics and other academic courses, $263 for Advanced Placement exams and $3,990 to participate in cross-country, track and band. That's not counting the $2,716.08 the Dombis paid in property taxes specifically earmarked for the schools.

    Their oldest daughter, Tessa, loves to sing, but they told her she couldn't take a choir class this year, as it would add $200 to the bill. "It's high school," Ms. Dombi said. "You're supposed to be able to try different things and see what you like."


    Dombi Family
    CROSS-COUNTRY FEE: $660. Zach Dombi chose track.

    Many states require schools to waive academic, but not extracurricular, fees for the poorest students, generally those with an annual income less than $29,000 a year for a family of four. Those above the cutoff, however, can be sanctioned if they don't pay in full. Schools may withhold their diplomas or ban them from commencement, which itself often carries a $30 to $60 "graduation fee."

    Even when waivers are available, advocates for the low-income contend that it violates the spirit of a free public education when parents must, in effect, seek charity to pay for their child's math workbook. In California, the American Civil Liberties Union is suing the state for allowing districts to charge a wide array of fees.

    Administrators and parents also worry that fees might affect some students' chances of getting into good colleges. Schools across the country now charge substantial "pay to play" fees not only for sports and arts programs, but also for more modest activities, including community service. Among the charges: $350 to join chess club, $200 to participate in Students Against Drunk Driving, $85 to write for the literary magazine—and $50 to clean up beaches with the Environmental Club.

    Academic transcripts, too, can take a hit, as the most rigorous courses—the kind that impress college admissions officers—can be the most costly. At Marietta High in southeastern Ohio, it costs $33 to take chemistry, $36 for honors chemistry and $152 for the Advanced Placement course.

    Dakota Ridge High in Littleton, Colo., charges sophomores $15 for basic 10th grade English but $50 for honors, which uses additional materials. Juniors can take basic English for $8 or pay $75—plus a test fee of about $90—for Advanced Placement English Literature.

    Although most districts make just a small percentage of their overall budget from academic fees, administrators say the revenue allows them to replace worn textbooks, for example, or provide math workbooks that students can actually write in.

    The jump in public-school fees has a back-to-the-future feel for New York University professor Jonathan Zimmerman, who studies the history of education. He's reminded, he said, of the early 19th century, when public schools drew on taxpayer support, but also often charged tuition. That practice began to shift in the 1840s with Horace Mann's drive for free "common schools."

    Basic Registration Fees
    Community Unit School District 200 – Wheaton, Ill.
    Elementary school:
    Registration fee -- $95
    Technology fee -- $15
    High school:
    Registration fee -- $175
    Locker fee -- $6
    Music fee -- $10
    Technology fee -- $40
    Graduation fee -- $30

    Blue Valley School District – Overland Park, Kansas
    High school:
    Learning resources fee -- $100
    Technology supply fee -- $15
    Activity programming fee -- $120

    U-46 High School District – Elgin, Ill.
    Instructional fee -- $125
    Locks -- $10
    Student ID -- $5

    Course Supplies Fees
    Lakota Local Schools – Liberty Township, Ohio
    English 9 -- $12
    French IV -- $75
    Honors Chemistry I -- $39.50
    Physical Science 101 -- $25
    AP Microeconomics -- $40

    Bloom Township High School District – Chicago Heights, Ill.
    Physics -- $13
    AP Biology -- $34
    Advanced Ceramics -- $25
    Freshman P.E. -- $26

    Dakota Ridge High School – Littleton, Colo.
    English 9 – $18
    Honors English 9 -- $38
    Honors English 12 -- $59
    AP English Literature -- $75
    Chemistry -- $10
    Honors Chemistry -- $20
    AP Chemistry -- $40 plus book
    German II -- $20

    Leeds High School – Leeds, Ala.
    Art -- $40
    Business technology -- $25
    Chemistry -- $25
    Drafting -- $40
    Marine Biology -- $25

    Extracurricular Activities Fees
    Arlington Public Schools – Arlington, Mass.
    Cheerleading -- $408
    Ice Hockey -- $720
    Gymnastics -- $720
    Wrestling -- $480

    Lakeville North High School – Lakeville, Minn.
    Debate -- $190
    Fall Musical -- $110
    Chess Club -- $150
    Science Olympiad -- $150

    Lenape Regional High School District – Shannon, N.J.
    Activities fee -- $200 to participate in one or more activities including:
    Literary Magazine
    Gay/Straight Alliance
    Students Against Drunk Driving
    Asian Club
    National Honor Society
    Student Government
    Stage Crew
    Jazz Band

    Hamilton-Wenham High Regional High School -- South Hamilton, Mass.
    Football -- $864
    Volleyball -- $537
    Baseball -- $591
    Girls tennis -- $372
    Boys tennis -- $239
    Literary Magazine -- $85
    World language club -- $71
    School musical -- $200

    Miscellaneous fees
    Douglas County School District – Castle Rock, Colo.
    Riding school bus daily -- $180
    Band uniform cleaning -- $15 / semester

    U-46 High School District – Elgin, Ill.
    Driver's Education
    Behind the wheel instruction -- $300
    Textbook -- $20
    Student parking permit -- $60

    Though the right to free education is now enshrined as an American value, when written into state constitutions, it typically carries a qualifier: Students are entitled to a "suitable" or an "adequate" education on the public dime.

    That has long been interpreted expansively. As far back as the 1920s, schools were offering a wide variety of courses designed to serve many aptitudes and interests, Mr. Zimmerman said.

    Today, however, educators and lawmakers are wondering if that's sustainable—or necessary. As the population ages and fewer voters have children in the public schools, some communities are questioning whether an "adequate" education really requires the public to fund a full menu of arts courses, or advanced science classes that may draw just a handful of kids, or a debate club or a gymnastics team.

    Seeking to define the extent of taxpayers' obligation, Kansas House Speaker Mike O'Neal suggests that "what should be required is more than the 3 Rs, but it is decidedly less than everything school districts choose to offer."

    In Medina, a quaint town midway between Cleveland and Akron, school costs had risen 23% over five years to $75 million in 2010, after the district opened two new elementary schools to meet projected enrollment increases. Last year, revenue fell sharply after state funding was cut.

    To shave costs, the Medina school board eliminated 106 teaching positions, or 20% of the teaching staff, over two years. Class size increased—from 25 kids per teacher, to 31 or 32. Many AP science and math classes were eliminated, along with the German and French programs. The district also reduced its offerings in art, music and other electives.

    To further bring down expenses, the teacher's union agreed last summer to $1 million in concessions, taking a 2.45% pay raise instead of the scheduled 3.45% raise and boosting their contributions to their health coverage from $80 a month for a family plan to $215 a month. These moves, combined with the layoffs, have saved the district nearly $3 million, cutting the 2011 budget by 4%, to $71 million. The district's average cost for teacher salary plus benefits is about $68,000.

    The district also sought to raise revenue. Three years in a row, voters were asked to approve higher property taxes to stave off steep cuts to athletic and arts programs. Three years in a row, voters said no.

    "We can't afford to get our teeth fixed because it's too expensive," said Joyce Harris, who is 70 and voted against the proposed tax hike. "If we have our taxes go up to pay for little Joey's football, that's not exactly fair."

    So the district turned to parents for financial help. Starting last winter, Medina began charging $660 to play a high-school sport, $200 to join the concert choir and $50 to act in the spring play.

    Large families didn't get a break. Neither did poor families, though 16% of Medina students are considered economically disadvantaged.

    There were to be no waivers, for any reason.

    The extracurricular fees, meant to raise $1 million for the district, had immediate impact. The track team, for instance, shrank from 191 to 92 student athletes. "It's like half your family is suddenly gone," said 15-year-old Tessa, a runner.

    Some academic costs also jumped. The school cut advanced calculus to save money, so a handful of top students were left with no math class. Worried that would look bad on her son's college applications, Cindy Fotheringham shelled out $850—plus $150 for books—to enroll him in an online calculus class. At the elementary school level, many parents will pay $30 per student next year to cover math workbooks and writing journals, which will bring in about $68,000 for the district.

    Administrators say the cuts and fees prompted about 100 students to switch to private schools.

    But the fees have brought a few unanticipated benefits. Though participation in athletics and music is down, those who remain are more committed than ever, according to some teachers. Many teens have taken jobs to help pay for their activities and say they're proud of their new responsibilities.

    While it has pained him to put price tags on so much of the public-school experience, Superintendent Randy Stepp said the new cost structure may not be all bad.

    "Students have to realize, as our country is realizing, that you can't have everything," Mr. Stepp said. "We all have to make tough choices."

    I agree we've placed too much importance and spent too much money on public school Sports. Full stadiums, track fields, practice fields, olympic-sized swimming pools, multiple gyms, tennis courts, uniforms, equipment, etc. Unfortunately, that's how many kids get to universities. And universities fund their academic programs with sports/athletics.

    But fees for science, math, chemistry, languages, advanced placement....and charges for lab goggles and printer ink? That goes too far and will do more harm than good.

  21. #231
    You should see how many fees they charge here. I believe an average undergrad ends up paying something close to a grand a semester in them.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #232
    Jesus Christ
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  23. #233
    It's what happens when you have a public university that has to get approval for tuition hikes from the state legislature, while that legislature has a habit of not only refusing to approve those hikes but also "forgets" to pay tens of millions (or a hundred million, as was the case last year) in its obligations. Room and board is also something like $11k a year for undergrads, when comparable private housing would probably cost half that.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #234
    Yeah, they add fees instead of upping tuition.

  25. #235
    Why couldn't they just fiddle with the thermostats and encourage people to wear sweaters?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It's what happens when you have a public university that has to get approval for tuition hikes from the state legislature, while that legislature has a habit of not only refusing to approve those hikes but also "forgets" to pay tens of millions (or a hundred million, as was the case last year) in its obligations. Room and board is also something like $11k a year for undergrads, when comparable private housing would probably cost half that.
    That's brilliant. And by brilliant, I mean really terrible but also hilarious.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  27. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It's what happens when you have a public university that has to get approval for tuition hikes from the state legislature, while that legislature has a habit of not only refusing to approve those hikes but also "forgets" to pay tens of millions (or a hundred million, as was the case last year) in its obligations. Room and board is also something like $11k a year for undergrads, when comparable private housing would probably cost half that.
    It also "looks less expensive" on their web sites, if college tuition doesn't include student fees or housing. Hard for students and families to budget when they do so much padding.

    For K-12 public schools, voters veto hikes in property taxes (for obvious reasons). But nickel-and-diming with fees doesn't really fix the underlying problem....of how we fund public education.

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