Who Creates Jobs?

[GGT]

I saw a chart today, sourced from either NBER or BLS (but can't remember which) showing how our long-term unemployment never really recovered after the '01 recession, and continued to worsen after this last recession was supposedly in "recovery phase". No bounce-back that usually follows from growth after a down-turn.

They can call it whatever they want....jobless recovery, more productivity with fewer workers in an efficient economy, risk of a double-dip recession, whatever....but the reality is grim. Millions out of work for almost two years (or more) who want a job but can't find one. Those who are too afraid to look for new jobs or move up the ladder, paralyzed in place with fear. Business not hiring, even though collectively they've re-balanced their books, deleveraged and gone from debt to holding $2 Trillion in cash, paralyzed in place with fear. (Plus a hefty dose of greed, I might add.) Banks still in bad shape, having gone from Too Big To Fail to even Bigger and Failing (especially in Europe). Housing sector limping along but mostly another zombie (like some banks), and Fannie Mae sniffing around for more billions in public support.

My God, we've managed to royally fuck things up, with no clear way how to turn it around. Republicans say it's all about national debt and deficit, and taxes. Cut-Cap-Balance. Shrink the government, because it's teh Evil. (I won't go into their hypocrisy at the moment.) Growth will come from the magic mist of Freee Markets, and wealth will Trickle Down. Democrats say it's about jobs and workers, with some government spending to kick-start the growth engine. Use the government for times like this, citing history of The Great Depression and WPA (or even central bankers) as an example of government that works. But government is broke (and broken), on federal and state levels, because not enough people are working to briing in tax revenues.

I'm not convinced either political party knows what the fuck to do. Even the "expert economists" are admitting there's no blue print for this time, with all our globalization, inter-connected financial tools and fuzzy maths. Everyone is either too heavy in debt, broke, or bankrupt. Those developing nations with hot growth can't keep up without the US and Europe, and they can't lead the world out of this mess.

China is like the teenager not quite ready to drive alone, with a learner's permit, but their parents are sick in bed. The developed nation-parents are too sick to drive themselves, and can't figure out what medicine is needed anyway. Cough, check fever, go back to bed and wait....malaise mixed with the feverish delusion that this is just a cold. Not the flu, not a virus spreading out of control, nothing to be done but wait it out. Calls made to adult neighbors are fruitless---they don't wanna take the kid out driving either, they might get in a wreck! Occasionally the fever breaks and things look on the mend, and that teenager might just have the adult driver needed. Until that rebound hits like a Mack Truck, flat in bed again, with nobody driving anywhere.

The US now has 46 million people on food stamps. That's one in every seven people, in the largest economy in the world. Mostly children. Jeff Bridges (and others) are trying to end childhood hunger in America. A worthy mission. On the other hand, Somalia is facing record famine, with 500,000 children on the verge of starving to death and WHO due to run out of its food aid in a couple of weeks. But that's not really making headlines. In the 21st century. What a wonderful world.....

/rant

[Ziggy Stardust]

Record corporate profits, no jobs. The increase in output in the third quarter was driven primarily by stronger consumer spending. Companies however prefer to wait until they have some security before hiring.

Bloody Obama

[GGT]

Record corporate profits, no jobs. The increase in output in the third quarter was driven primarily by stronger consumer spending. Companies however prefer to wait until they have some security before hiring.

Bloody Obama

Yeah, it's all Obama's fault.

I think we need new metrics for measuring the overall health of economies, to reflect the lives of real people, especially the middle masses or those on the lower cusp. GDP, corporate profits, and unemployment numbers don't cut the mustard, even though they're always stated in the "news" as measures of a nation's strength.

So many people are adamant that growth and jobs can only come from Freee Market Capitalism, few/no Regulations or government oversight, low corporate tax rates....to unleash the animal spirits of greed growth. And that growth will progress under its own power, will somehow find its way down the chain, to benefit the workers as much as the corporate owners.

That's describing how moss might grow on a stationary rock, at the end of a babbling brook which started from a powerful waterfall waaay waaay far away. That's not a very good description of how people want to be more than some rock, waiting to grow moss.

[RandBlade]

Record corporate profits, no jobs. The increase in output in the third quarter was driven primarily by stronger consumer spending. Companies however prefer to wait until they have some security before hiring.

Bloody Obama

Good. Key then is to cut regulations and taxations to allow corporations to make more profits, so they have more security and then can start hiring more. Good to see that companies aren't being so stupid as to over-stretch so the slightest knock sends them out of business making everybody lose their jobs.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yes. Record profits aren't enough. More profits! And then they'll hire. You'll see!

[CitizenCain]

Yes. Record profits aren't enough. More profits! And then they'll hire. You'll see!

Unfortunately, this administration’s talk about pro-job policies is sounding a bit like O.J. looking for his ex-wife’s killer. The culprit is standing right there. Yet, the Obama administration insists on more of the same: tax hikes, spending and a nonstop flood of regulatory measures. Administration officials would rather whimper about the S&P analysis than to reevaluate and revise their economic approach. And with Tim Geithner staying on as treasury secretary, don’t expect any creative economic policies anytime soon.

Yes, we really do need to focus our efforts on finding the real killers, don't we?

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ah yes, Obama and his tax hikes. Like the tax hikes from the stimulus and those recent ones he shoved down republicans throats. Bloody Obama

Lets look at the culprits.

Wall Street Journal: Taxes, unemployed people to blame for unemployment
Everything You Need To Know About How Liberals Kill The Economy
Why I'm Not Hiring

Poor Job Creators

[GGT]

Unfortunately, this administration’s talk about pro-job policies is sounding a bit like O.J. looking for his ex-wife’s killer. The culprit is standing right there. Yet, the Obama administration insists on more of the same: tax hikes, spending and a nonstop flood of regulatory measures. Administration officials would rather whimper about the S&P analysis than to reevaluate and revise their economic approach. And with Tim Geithner staying on as treasury secretary, don’t expect any creative economic policies anytime soon.

Yes, we really do need to focus our efforts on finding the real killers, don't we?

Dude, you need to find new material for your stand-up comedy routine. The Obama administration is more like Bush lite, and you know it.

[Veldan Rath]

Dude, you need to find new material for your stand-up comedy routine. The Obama administration is more like Bush lite, and you know it.

Okay, since Bush was to blame for everything, and PresBo is Bush-lite, what is he to blame for?

[Ziggy Stardust]

Almost everything.

[CitizenCain]

We've been over this before, GeeGee. Don't pull things out of your ass that you can't back up. The Obama administration is like Bush heavy, not Bush lite. It's more Bush than Bush was, at least according to the popular left-wing narrative of why Bush was evil.

And, to both of you, the italicized part is a quotation, from the article I linked with that job loss factoid. If y'all are going to get all knee-jerk "Obama the wonder-god, Bush the Satan-spawn," you should at least make the effort to direct that inane drivel in the proper direction.

[Ziggy Stardust]

And, to both of you, the italicized part is a quotation, from the article I linked with that job loss factoid.

Oh I do apologize for reacting to it good Sir. I didn't realise it was a quotation. I know how that's like holy scripture and all.

If y'all are going to get all knee-jerk "Obama the wonder-god, Bush the Satan-spawn," you should at least make the effort to direct that inane drivel in the proper direction.

Obama is not my wonder-god, he's my messiah (PBUH), or so I have been told. He's also a very naughty boy.

[GGT]

We've been over this before, GeeGee. Don't pull things out of your ass that you can't back up. The Obama administration is like Bush heavy, not Bush lite. It's more Bush than Bush was, at least according to the popular left-wing narrative of why Bush was evil.

And, to both of you, the italicized part is a quotation, from the article I linked with that job loss factoid. If y'all are going to get all knee-jerk "Obama the wonder-god, Bush the Satan-spawn," you should at least make the effort to direct that inane drivel in the proper direction.

Wait, what part of my post sounded like Obama was the wonder God and Bush the Satan spawn?

A) Government can't (and shouldn't) create jobs. Unless it's a national emergency.
B) Private sector could (but won't) create jobs. Even if it's a national emergency.
C) Public and private sector are busy fighting. During a national emergency.
D) Workers and the middle class are screwed. The national emergency is one of our own making.

Well then, back to square one. Who creates jobs and Where Are The Jobs?

[termite]

Growth "creates" jobs, most other factors simply move jobs around.

[GGT]

Growth "creates" jobs, most other factors simply move jobs around.

That goes without saying. How is growth created, and by whom? Especially now, during tough times like this, with many countries treading water while Asia is growing fast. Growth and demand mean new jobs, but not necessarily in the "right" places (like the US) or the "right" industries (like finance). Cheap labor acts like a vacuum sucking away jobs at home.

What to do about that? Do we want Hoover or FDR, or something else?

[CitizenCain]

What to do about that? Do we want Hoover or FDR, or something else?

I suggest we hold out for someone who's at least a little right of Stalin, personally. Then again, that idea didn't fly last election, so it might not fly next time either.

[GGT]

I suggest we hold out for someone who's at least a little right of Stalin, personally. Then again, that idea didn't fly last election, so it might not fly next time either.

What's that make Bush, Jr.? Stalin lite?

I hear tell Rick Perry is a Texas "job creator". Something like half all new jobs since the recession were in Texas. Never mind they were mostly minimum wage/temporary/part-time, or that Texas students rank at the national bottom, but tops in drop-outs....and numbers of people without healthcare. A job's a job, right?

[RandBlade]

I hear tell Rick Perry is a Texas "job creator". Something like half all new jobs since the recession were in Texas. Never mind they were mostly minimum wage/temporary/part-time, or that Texas students rank at the national bottom, but tops in drop-outs....and numbers of people without healthcare. A job's a job, right?

A job is better than no job so to one extent yes. In addition how long has Perry been leading Texas? I genuinely don't know, but is he responsible for the education issues you've mentioned.

[GGT]

A job is better than no job so to one extent yes. In addition how long has Perry been leading Texas? I genuinely don't know, but is he responsible for the education issues you've mentioned.

I don't know, either. Perry's governorship in Texas has both allies and critics. Just as Romney's governorship in Massachusetts does.

Seems to me we can't "run" a country like we would any single state, even if those states saw some limited or state-specific successes. Not if we are to be a United States of America.

[GGT]

A job might be better than none, but to what extent? I watched CNN's coverage of saving Blair Mountain in West Virginia....and nope, giving 200-300 people temporary jobs to strip mine mountain coal is NOT worth the permanent and irreparable damage done to water-soil-air-health for thousands/millions of people, or next generations.

We can't just permanently fuck up our planet in exchange for our daily dose of energy. Like an addict's fix, needing what we need, and needing it right now, no matter who gets hurt in the process, or in the long run.

West Virginia is a beautiful place of trees, mountain hills, streams, rivers, rocks, wildlife. As part of the Appalachian region, it's more valuable than its coal. It'd be a crime to let the coal industry, or our energy consumption craven society, ruin such a magnificent region. Once it's gone, it can't be replaced.

[Loki]

Growth "creates" jobs, most other factors simply move jobs around.

Well said. If only politicians were brave enough to make the same argument to the public.

[Veldan Rath]

...Seems to me we can't "run" a country like we would any single state, even if those states saw some limited or state-specific successes. Not if we are to be a United States of America.

Umm, isn't that the one size fits all Federal Government you want? Or is that someone else?

[GGT]

Well said. If only politicians were brave enough to make the same argument to the public.

They have, though. Not consistently, but there ARE politicians saying certain jobs lost will never return. That local economies will need to be flexible and dynamic, while being safe and not dangerous to future generations.... and find new ways to grow to compete with Asia and other developing nations. It's not an easy recipe.

Back to WV, political leaders would do better service to either (A) push for federal R & D of clean coal mining, (B) encourage residents to pursue alternative income while aging in place, or (C) pulling up roots and moving to where the coal mining jobs are---Wyoming.

We only have one Wyoming resident so far, but munchkin has posted in depth about contamination of ground water, and pollution of air. She has to BUY drinking water, because previous and current mining has ruined their supply.

So, let's see....people are so desperate for work that they'd let their employer ruin their community's air-soil-water? Doesn't that sound more like previous centuries of coal miners, ash maids, and chimney sweeps...who took the brunt for their "benefactors", and promptly died premature deaths?

[GGT]

Umm, isn't that the one size fits all Federal Government you want? Or is that someone else?

No idea what's in your head, or memory. Keeping track of my own is quite enough, thanks.

Federal Government isn't so much as One Size Fits All, as it is....a coordinated effort. A national effort. The presumption is that our 50 states would work together, for the national good, before any state would work on its own benefit by "selling out" to other nations.

Hershey could have decided to stay in PA, raising their prices by pennies. But they didn't. They decided to move manufacturing to Mexico, so the shareholders could see more profits. Jobs created are in Mexico. Jobs lost are in Hershey, PA.

America's historic chocolate bar, now manufactured in Mexico.

[Loki]

Sorry, but if your skills can be taught to an uneducated person in a week, you really shouldn't complain if your job moves to the third world.

[GGT]

Sorry, but if your skills can be taught to an uneducated person in a week, you really shouldn't complain if your job moves to the third world.

What was your point of that post, Loki? To highlight that perhaps 1/3 of American jobs could be outsourced to other nations, because they're simple and easily taught? I would't argue too much about that. But if those jobs go to the third world, what new jobs can replace those that were outsourced and lost?

There are still millions of Americans who want to work, and need work. Not just to buy cheaper Hershey chocolate bars manufactured in Mexico.

[Loki]

We live in a globalized world. Short of using methods that would lead to an economic collapse, there are no way to "protect" many unskilled jobs. Americans (and Europeans) need to learn that the global economy does not tolerate an individual making ten times more in America what an uneducated person can do more or less equally well elsewhere. It's the height of conceit to assume that an American should get paid that much more purely because they are American.

[GGT]

We live in a globalized world. Short of using methods that would lead to an economic collapse, there are no way to "protect" many unskilled jobs. Americans (and Europeans) need to learn that the global economy does not tolerate an individual making ten times more in America what an uneducated person can do more or less equally well elsewhere. It's the height of conceit to assume that an American should get paid that much more purely because they are American.

Every worker knows that, especially those who have "transferrable" jobs.

Please expound on these "methods" that would lead to economic collapse, even if workers make ten times more than others in third world nations. Using Starbucks as the model won't work.

[Loki]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_...ustrialization

[GGT]

Walk American workers through ISI, Loki. Assume you're their boss, or corporate CEO or CFO.