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Thread: Greece, the gloves are off

  1. #1
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    Default Greece, the gloves are off

    It started a couple of weeks ago with people talking about a group of 5 EMU members which were putting the euro at risk. The worst offender was Greece. That Greece would be in such a position shouldn't surprise anybody; most people who thought about the subject couldn't really explain how a country with the fiscal disciplin of the Greeks could be a member of the EMU at all.

    As the days went by the pressure on the Greeks became higher and higher and talk of a Greek debt default became louder and louder. Right up to the point that a special meetings of EU leaders were held about the Greek situation. Out of this came a statement which didn't say much more that Greece wouldn't be left out in the cold if it came to a crisis. Added to this was a remark that Greece so far hadn't asked for financial assistance yet.

    Which was just as well because in the countries that should pick up the Greek bill the enthousiasm for paying for the Greek excesses was less than encouraging. In Holland the lower chamber of parliament accepted a motion which stated that the government was forbidden to use any dutch tax money for a bail out of Greece. It was carried by all parties. There were no votes against. In Germany people are angry that the Greeks expect Germans to pay for the costs of Greeks retiring at 60 where they (the Germans) just had to swallow a raising of the retirement age to 67. A majority of Germans Greece should simply be chucked out of the EMU.

    Then some more news seeped out; Greece was to impose an austerity program to reduce the budget deficit with a full 4% within this year and should report back on implementation in March. Greece was also told to submit extra measures as it was expected these might be necessary to reach the goals of reducing the Greek deficit to EMU standards in a reasonable number of years.

    It was then that the Greek government started to mutter about Greece being used as a guinea pig. Officials said they didn't think extra measures were necessary yet. Then a little bomb exploded; news was published about previous Greek government not only being creative with the numbers, but outright fraudulent with the help of investment banks.

    And then today a bigger bomb albeit a more symbolical one; Greece will be stripped from its right to vote on the austerity plan next month. Having a vote wouldn't make much of a real difference. But actually stripping a member of a vote is unheard of in EU circles.

    What I am really curious about is if this is just a one-off situation or that we're seeing the beginning of a fiscal authority in the EU that together with the Lisbon changes could lead to a real federal government.

    source
    Congratulations America

  2. #2
    Weren't they denied entry into the EU a while back, and their membership has since been found to be based on "false accounting"?

    Sounds like reasons to be booted from the EU, but wouldn't that have a domino effect on other countries? Even the UK?

    <last weekend my Greek in-laws were checking their dish news to see Greece make announcements. Since it was all in Greek I couldn't follow well, but they're disgusted by the long history of cooking the books, entrenched criminality in the government, and what they called lazy entitlements.>


  3. #3
    As long as there are banks, there will be an incentive to have debt.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Weren't they denied entry into the EU a while back, and their membership has since been found to be based on "false accounting"?

    Sounds like reasons to be booted from the EU, but wouldn't that have a domino effect on other countries? Even the UK?

    <last weekend my Greek in-laws were checking their dish news to see Greece make announcements. Since it was all in Greek I couldn't follow well, but they're disgusted by the long history of cooking the books, entrenched criminality in the government, and what they called lazy entitlements.>

    No, they were never denied. But now they're having to feel the full wrath of the other members for cheating their way in.
    Congratulations America

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    As long as there are banks, there will be an incentive to have debt.
    Actually, if it's certain you won't be able to pay back, then banks have no interest in lending your money.
    Congratulations America

  6. #6
    Feb. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Goldman Sachs Group Inc. managed $15 billion of bond sales for Greece after arranging a currency swap that allowed the government to hide the extent of its deficit.

    No mention was made of the swap in sales documents for the securities in at least six of the 10 sales the bank arranged for Greece since the transaction, according to a review of the prospectuses by Bloomberg. The New York-based firm helped Greece raise $1 billion of off-balance-sheet funding in 2002 through the swap, which European Union regulators said they knew nothing about until recent days.

    Failing to disclose the swap may have allowed Goldman, a co-lead manager on many of the sales, other underwriters and Greece to get a better price for the securities, said Bill Blain, co-head of fixed income at Matrix Corporate Capital LLP, a London-based broker and fund manager.

    “The price of bonds should reflect the reality of Greece’s finances,” Blain said. “If a bank was selling them to investors on the basis of publicly available information, and they were aware that information was incorrect, then investors have been fooled.”

    Michael DuVally, a spokesman at Goldman Sachs in New York, declined to comment.
    "Legal at the time", heh.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...4y5U7MnU&pos=4

  7. #7
    I bet Europeans must eager to lose jobs, as I see no one willing to help greek people.

    As govt finances are tightened and hits greek unemployment, greek workers will become cheaper and cheaper, creating good prospects for companies that may move to Greece.

    As people in Greece lose their pensions, they would work even if they should retire, creating an extra supply of cheap workers to make the rest of Europe to lose some extra jobs.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I don't think the last word on the legality of the deals has been said.

    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    I bet Europeans must eager to lose jobs, as I see no one willing to help greek people.

    As govt finances are tightened and hits greek unemployment, greek workers will become cheaper and cheaper, creating good prospects for companies that may move to Greece.

    As people in Greece lose their pensions, they would work even if they should retire, creating an extra supply of cheap workers to make the rest of Europe to lose some extra jobs.
    Incomes in Greece, at least for public service workers are going to be slashed either way. With EU help as part of an austerity plan (the other states are not going to cut back at home in order for the Greeks to maintain their too lavish life style) or as the effect of a collapse of the Greek economy.
    Congratulations America

  9. #9
    There are only 4 ways to cut deficit without reducing expenses:
    1.Nationalizing profitable banks (bankers will oppose)
    2.Raise taxes
    3.Print money (issuing either currency or bonds)
    4.Do nothing. Let inflation to transfer deficits to citizens as poverty and unemployment.

    If they cut expenses, and it involves firing people, they'd be taking option 4.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    There are only 4 ways to cut deficit without reducing expenses:
    1.Nationalizing profitable banks (bankers will oppose)
    2.Raise taxes
    3.Print money (issuing either currency or bonds)
    4.Do nothing. Let inflation to transfer deficits to citizens as poverty and unemployment.

    If they cut expenses, and it involves firing people, they'd be taking option 4.
    1.The problem with the Greek debt is that it's mostly foreign, they can't do anything about it by nationalizing their banks.
    2. Yes, they should raise taxes, mostly widen their tax base
    3. They can't print money without throwing themselves into the abyss first
    4. They can't do nothing as they will default on their debts, also, Greece is a EMU country which means that excessive local inflation only makes thiings worse for them. \\

    Do you even know what this thread is about? You don't seem to understand even the basic premiss.
    Congratulations America

  11. #11
    He's already posted the same thing 3-4 times in various threads.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    1.The problem with the Greek debt is that it's mostly foreign, they can't do anything about it by nationalizing their banks.
    Nationalize credit so banks become a government agency, so it nationalizes the profit, then use it to pay foreign debt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    He's already posted the same thing 3-4 times in various threads.
    It applies to the context. In this case it applies to Greece.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    Nationalize credit so banks become a government agency, so it nationalizes the profit, then use it to pay foreign debt.


    It applies to the context. In this case it applies to Greece.
    You still don't get it do you ? The debt is foreign debt, you can't nationalize foreign debt, you can default on it, but that effectively cuts you off from future credit. If you want to know what life looks like without credit look at Iceland. It's not just about the ability to borrow, but the ability to buy things from other countries without having to pay in full before the goods are delivered.

    What you write doesn't apply at all to the context, the context being that all of the things you think Greece should do aren't available to it. Unless they choose to push their economy into a free fall first. Thus making things exponentially worse than the worst outcome under the alternatives. Your solution is tantamount to solving a headache with a bullet through the head.
    Congratulations America

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You still don't get it do you ? The debt is foreign debt, you can't nationalize foreign debt, you can default on it, but that effectively cuts you off from future credit.
    He said pay the debt with bank profits.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  15. #15
    That can't possibly go wrong.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    He said pay the debt with bank profits.
    I know he said that, and it only makes me wonder in which hole his head was the last two years.
    Congratulations America

  17. #17
    Given part of the problem is the government supporting banks that are losing money, AR81's inane ramblings make even less sense than ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT
    Weren't they denied entry into the EU a while back, and their membership has since been found to be based on "false accounting"?

    Sounds like reasons to be booted from the EU, but wouldn't that have a domino effect on other countries? Even the UK?
    There were talks about denying Greece entry to the EMU (Euro) but stupidly it never happened. The idea that Greece massaged their figures in order to trade the Drachma for the Euro is not a new bombshell - we've all known that since before the launch of the Euro. People on all sides were happy to turn a blind-eye and now its an unexploded timebomb starting to go off, not a newly discovered bomb.

    As for the UK, the UK does indeed have similar problems to Greece. The appalling Labour government and in particular that great disaster Gordon Brown has wrecked the UK's fiscal position. Arguably our debt is even worse than the Greek's. However there are 2 big things that mean we still have a AAA rating and no risk of default. Firstly the fact that everyone knows there'll be an election soon, Brown will be out of Downing Street after 13 years and Cameron/Osborne will do what is necessary to fix our deficit. So the market has more faith in us.

    Secondly is the fact that - and Hazir will no doubt disagree that this is advantageous - we're not part of the Euro. In prior Greek debt crises (this is not the first) the Drachma was devalued and the Greek economy recovered and the Greek's debt was covered. This is part of a natural economic cycle, when things go bad a freely-floating currency can act as a shock absorber by either devaluing or going up depending upon what the situation is. By having Euro membership the Greek currency can't devalue. By not having it, the UK's pound sterling has done so. When the Euro was launched the pound hovered between a value of €1.60 to €1.70 - now its hovering between €1.10 and €1.20 and nearly went through parity at the peak of the crisis when we had the run on Northern Rock. So the Greek's have been stuck with an over-valued currency meaning they have to take other actions to stem the pain, while in the UK sterling has done its job with an over 30% devaluation against the Euro seeing us through the profligacy of Labour until we can fix the problems in a more managed, better economic situation. Had we been in the Euro things would have been much, much worse.

  18. #18
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    Actually, the UK hasn't really done anything yet and it's totally unclear where that nation stands at the moment. The house of cards may hold or it may fall, it's anybody's bet what will happen.

    WRT Greece, yes, it's a short term disadvantage if you can't devaluate yourself out of a recession. However, the positive effects of devalutation are limited and not lasting. They make sloppy governments like the Greek avoid making the type of choices that are needed for any sustainable flscal policy, which is that you don't spend so much more than you earn that the debt becomes unservable. For a small country like Greece having your own currency in a situation like we are seeing right now could actually aggravate the problems as the sovereign debt is more likely to be in foreign currency and it's easier for people to swap their savings into foreign currency too, making a controlled devaluation the beginning of a free fall of the currency.

    As things happen I am in a country right now where we saw the currency go down from 1:4 against the USD to 1:1,200,000 in my lifetime. And I can tell you that untill the central bank became independent and got a 'german' mandate this erosion of the local currency only meant that the 'real economy' was in either dollars or deutschmarks and later euros.
    Congratulations America

  19. #19
    Devaluation is not a sustainable or permanent solution, but it is useful when necessary.

    Personally I'd prefer we never got into this mess in the first place. I voted Conservative at the last election, yet Labour was returned so so be it. The devaluation of our currency within the lifetime of this Parliament has allowed the markets to support the economy in a way the electorate have not yet been given an opportunity to. Had we not had sterling, the devaluation would not have happened - nor would an election so no change in government - and the economy would be a lot worse as a result.

  20. #20
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    Or you would have had a government not so excessively overspending as the one you have. Which is better, to be able to apply a quick fix of questionable usefulness or a mechanism to discipline governments that try to sell every expense as an 'investment' ? It's not like other can't devaluate too if they get upset by your policies. It happened before and shows why devaluation isn't really working.
    Congratulations America

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Or you would have had a government not so excessively overspending as the one you have.
    Yes. Well as I said I voted Conservative, I saw through Labour. Sadly my fellow countrymen did not and Brown was returned (for the last time) to Downing Street. Post-crisis though the polls are clear, we will replace him as soon as is asked, but for now we can't.
    pquote]Which is better, to be able to apply a quick fix of questionable usefulness or a mechanism to discipline governments that try to sell every expense as an 'investment' ? [/quote] Both.

    Brown calling every expenditure "investment" is a pet hate of mine as you well know. But at the last election it wasn't clear to everyone just what a hole was being dug, the deficit was only ~3% not 12%. Long-term we will have a change of government that will fix this governments mistakes, that's democracy in action, short-term though a freely-floating currency can and has acted like a shock absorber.
    It's not like other can't devaluate too if they get upset by your policies. It happened before and shows why devaluation isn't really working.
    Actually devaluation is working.

    http://www.ecb.int/stats/exchange/eu...ph-gbp.en.html - Click the 10 year button and click See EUR vs. GBP to show just how dramatic the fall is.

    The fact its not a long-term solution does not mean that its not a short-term one.

  22. #22
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    And the UK economy is better off exactly how?
    Congratulations America

  23. #23
    Speaking of Greece, looks like the Dutch government fell.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    And the UK economy is better off exactly how?
    Our economy is recovering despite the government, we are not having a debt crisis so severe that we need support from other states/the IMF (again despite the government).

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Our economy is recovering despite the government, we are not having a debt crisis so severe that we need support from other states/the IMF (again despite the government).
    Actually your ability to devaluate works against you wrt the potential debt crisis. Otherwise I don't exactly see stunning good growth in the UK despite your currency having gone down the pipes.
    Congratulations America

  26. #26
    Athens: The First Domino?
    Comment

    by RICHARD PARKER

    This article appeared in the March 8, 2010 edition of The Nation.
    February 18, 2010


    Justice will not come to Athens until those who are not injured are as indignant as those who are injured.--Thucydides


    Richard Parker serves as an adviser to Prime Minister Papandreou.



    The shadow of classical Greece has always loomed large over Western civilization--whether in literature, philosophy, art, mathematics, history or politics, it has been, in so many ways, the fons et origo of us all. Modern Greece suddenly seems poised to play that same outsized role, but by no means in the same civilizing way. Athens's fiscal crisis could very well ignite the next global financial crisis--just as the world hoped it might be starting a slow exit from the last one.

    ......

    The situation has the makings of an Aeschylean tragedy. If help isn't forthcoming, little Greece--whose economy is just 3 percent of Europe's GDP--could, against its will, set off a chain reaction that pulls down Portugal, Ireland, Spain, perhaps even Italy, and thereby throws Europe's, and then America's and the rest of the world's, fragile recoveries into reverse.

    ......

    The question, as one very anxious European banker told me, is "whether Greece will be the Bear Stearns of sovereign credit." Greece's outstanding debt is more than Bear Stearns's $400 billion balance sheet exposure in 2008, before its collapse--but there the analogy ends. Greece is a sovereign nation, not a company, and it isn't going bankrupt, not least because its currency is the euro, shared by 320 million Europeans and backed by an economy larger than America's. But if it is forced into debt rescheduling and renegotiation, Greece could well spark a panicky stampede.

    ......

    But Wall Street speculators have swarmed in, playing Greece, as the Financial Times put it, "like a piñata." The country's tiny bond market--barely a billion euros a day were trading in Athens in January--makes an easy and tempting target for traders with big bats; by attacking Greek bonds, the traders get to play on an increasingly pan-European volatility in bond and currency rates, thereby leveraging a little nation's problems into gigantic trading-floor gains. And thanks to the Obama administration's repeated refusal to limit such activities--despite pleas from our European allies since 2008 to jointly reregulate global financial markets--what the traders are doing is legal. In fact, massive immediate trading profits are the means by which banks like Goldman, Citi, JPMorgan, Barclays, UBS and Deutsche Bank are rebuilding their balance sheets without providing the lending the real economies of America and Europe need to begin their recovery.

    He's an adviser to Papandreou, but still---interesting angle.

    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20100308/parker

  27. #27
    (bump to ask question)

    I heard a blurb on CNN that Greece's airline workers are planning to strike, and only emergency flights will be allowed in or out. Then the announcer said Spain and Portugal are also planning various strikes or protests, mostly because of the budget cuts and retirement age raises.

    WTF?

  28. #28
    They had a hand in destroying Greece's economy, so they figured they might as well finish the job.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    What do they think striking will accomplish? Reminds me of California Dreamin'


    Greece and the Welfare State In Ruins

    By Robert Samuelson

    It would be possible in other circumstances to disregard the ongoing story of Greece and its debts as a tedious tale of financial markets. But there's much more to it than that. What's happening in Greece speaks to two larger issues affecting hundreds of millions of people everywhere: the future of the welfare state and the fate of Europe's single currency -- the euro. The meaning of Greece transcends high finance.

    Every advanced society, including the United States, has a welfare state. Though details differ, their purposes are similar: to support the unemployed, poor, disabled and aged. All welfare states face similar problems: burgeoning costs as populations age; an over-reliance on debt financing; and pressures to reduce borrowing that create pressures to cut welfare spending. High debt and the welfare state are at odds. It's an open question whether the collision will cause social and economic turmoil.

    Greece is the opening act in this drama; already, its budget problems have spawned street protests. By the numbers, Greece's plight is acute. In 2009, its government debt -- basically, the sum of past annual deficits -- was 113 percent of its economy (gross domestic product, or GDP). The budget deficit for 2009 was 12.7 percent of GDP. Two-thirds of the debt is owed to foreigners, reports the Institute of International Finance.


    The crisis originated in fears that Greece wouldn't be able to refinance almost 17 billion euros in bonds (about $23 billion) maturing this April and May, says the IIF's Jeffrey Anderson. If lenders balked, Greece would default on its bonds. A default would inflict losses on banks and other investors. By itself, this wouldn't be calamitous, because Greece is small (population: 11 million). But a Greek default could undermine market confidence in other euro countries' ability to service their debts. Serial defaults would threaten the global economic recovery. Most often mentioned are Spain, Portugal and Ireland.

    Preventing that is what the 16 euro countries, led by France and Germany, are debating. Greece's adoption of the euro contributed to the crisis. For years, it enabled Greece to borrow at low interest rates, because the prevailing assumption was that the euro bloc wouldn't allow one of its members to default. It would be rescued by the others. These expectations constituted an implicit guarantee of the debt of Greece and other euro countries. If Greece defaulted, the guarantee would vanish and, possibly, trigger a flight from other countries' debt.

    But in practice, a bailout is proving hugely controversial. If Greece is aided, won't other countries demand -- or require -- rescues? Is this possible, considering that even France and Germany have high debts and that a Greek bailout is unpopular, especially in Germany? One way to mute the problems is for Greece to embrace a harsh austerity that reduces its borrowing. Greece has already pledged to cut its government workforce and raise taxes on alcohol, tobacco and fuel. The other euro countries want more. Their dilemma is that either rescuing or abandoning Greece is a gamble.

    To some economists, Greece's situation is so dire that default is inevitable, though it may be a few years away. The required austerity would be too punishing, says Desmond Lachman of the American Enterprise Institute. Greece would need spending cuts and tax increases equal to 10 percent of GDP, he says. The resulting savage recession would worsen existing unemployment, already about 10 percent. "No sane country is going to accept that," says Lachman. Greece may get a temporary rescue, he thinks, but will someday miss debt payments and revert to its old currency: the "drachma."

    Conceived as a way to unite Europe, the euro increasingly divides. No one wants Greece to default, but no one wants to pay the price of prevention. With its own currency, Lachman thinks, Greece would pursue depreciation to spur exports and economic revival. If other countries dump the euro, currency wars could ensue. The threat to the euro bloc ultimately stems from an overcommitted welfare state. Greece's situation is so difficult because a low birth rate and rapidly graying population automatically increase old-age assistance even as the government tries to cut its spending. At issue is the viability of its present welfare state.

    Almost every advanced country -- the United States, Britain, Germany, Italy, France, Japan, Belgium and others -- faces some combination of huge budget deficits, high debts, aging populations and political paralysis. It's an unstable mix. Present deficits may aid economic recovery, but the persistence of those deficits threatens long-term prosperity. The same unpleasant choices confronting Greece await most wealthy nations, even if they pretend otherwise.
    Would it be considered Doom 'n Gloom to suggest this looks like a canary in a coal mine? Come on all ye optimist club members, put the positive spin on this....

    *http://www.realclearmarkets.com/arti...ins_98354.html
    Last edited by GGT; 02-22-2010 at 05:13 PM. Reason: *

  30. #30
    Greece's situation is so difficult because a low birth rate and rapidly graying population automatically increase old-age assistance even as the government tries to cut its spending. At issue is the viability of its present welfare state.
    Hmm, I almost took issue with this. At least the article doesn't imply that a higher birth rate (with a disregard for who is having kids, that is) is the way to go...

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