Koch Brothers Flout Law Getting Richer With Secret Iran Sales

[GGT]

(Direct title quote)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...ran-sales.html

Paragraph 2:

Koch-Glitsch is part of a global empire run by billionaire brothers Charles and David Koch, who have taken a small oil company they inherited from their father, Fred, after his death in 1967, and built it into a chemical, textile, trading and refining conglomerate spanning more than 50 countries.

Koch Industries is obsessed with secrecy, to the point that it discloses only an approximation of its annual revenue -- $100 billion a year -- and says nothing about its profits.

The most visible part of Koch Industries is its consumer brands, including Lycra fiber and Stainmaster carpet. Georgia- Pacific LLC, which Koch owns, makes Dixie cups, Brawny paper towels and Quilted Northern bath tissue.

Charles, 75, and David, 71, each worth about $20 billion, are prominent financial backers of groups that believe that excessive regulation is sapping the competitiveness of American business. They inherited their anti-government leanings from their father.

Final paragraph:

“My overall concept is to minimize the role of government and to maximize the role of the private economy and maximize personal freedoms,” David Koch told the National Journal in May 1992.

In his 2007 book, Charles Koch says his company had difficulty keeping up with changing government regulations and that it did eventually build an effective compliance program for 20 areas ranging from environmental to antitrust to safety regulations.

“We were caught unprepared by the rapid increase in regulation,” he wrote. “While business was becoming increasingly regulated, we kept thinking and acting as if we lived in a pure market economy.”

Initially, I was going to put this in Enoch's thread about the EPA (and other federal regulating agencies) to illustrate how "voluntary best standards" or industries regulating themselves doesn't work as a philosophical ideal, when there's corporate corruption like this. Then I realized it could also be posted in Dread's thread about Occupy Wall Street (and other protests) about the 99% who are Mad as Hell at the other 1%, whether it's government failures or crony capitalists. Politically, it fits in EyeKhan's thread about lobbying and buying favors from legislators.

Take your pick, whichever angle hits a nerve....it's all in Bloomberg's investigative report. Koch Brothers and their practices, and how they intersect with money and power and government, are like poster children for so many things gone wrong in the US. No, we don't have cohesive national policies on Energy, Trade, Taxes, Environment or consumer protections. Yes, we have a political system that follows the money and highest bidders donors. Even a Dept. of Justice that seems incapable of reining in criminal activity.

[CitizenCain]

What's wrong and objectively objectionable about the Koch brothers, again? Are they Jewish or something?

Even a Dept. of Justice that seems incapable of reining in criminal activity.

Probably entirely unrelated to everything being a crime these days, though.

[GGT]

What's wrong and objectively objectionable about the Koch brothers, again? Are they Jewish or something?

Probably entirely unrelated to everything being a crime these days, though.

If you read the entire report you wouldn't be asking what's wrong with this bigger picture. If you were true to form, you'd be lambasting inefficient gummint, instead of pimping your personal CainCrazy_TM Zionist conspiracy (again) as some kind of sick insider joke against anyone who sees corruption where it exists.

[CitizenCain]

Oh, undoubtedly. I'm sure I'd see a vast j00ish/lolbertarian conspiracy if only I read the entire thing.

[GGT]

Oh, undoubtedly. I'm sure I'd see a vast j00ish/lolbertarian conspiracy if only I read the entire thing.

You're probably the biggest conspiracy theorist this forum has ever seen. It's either teh evil government taking your dollars by threat of a gun to your head and calling them TAXES, or teh evil gummint out to kill you or even worse, cage you in a cell. But, ironically, these are the reasons you emigrated from Canada and seek US citizenship?

Stop trolling.

[CitizenCain]

You're probably the biggest conspiracy theorist

Stop using words you don't know the meaning of.

FWIW, YOU are the biggest conspiracy theorist on here, and it's exactly shit like this that is the reason why. The Jews bankers and accountants and math quants and other Wall Street interests control the world. No, wait, big pharma does. No wait, now it's the Koch brothers. Anytime you see a policy or an SOP you don't agree with, it always the nefarious someones secretly wielding influence and pulling the strings of the government behind the scenes. It's bat-shit insane, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop projecting your inadequacies on me, thanks.

this forum has ever seen. It's either teh evil government taking your dollars by threat of a gun to your head and calling them TAXES, or teh evil gummint out to kill you or even worse, cage you in a cell.

Oh, grow up. You're allegedly a fully grown adult. Please start acting the part. Fake if you have to.

But, ironically, these are the reasons you emigrated from Canada and seek US citizenship?

We've been over this many times. Other people have told you many times. At this point, the only rational explanation is that you're either dumber than house plant or you're deliberately lying about me to try to make your twisted point. Whichever it is, stop. And while you're stopping things, stop getting personally offended whenever anyone [else] points out that your precious country isn't a perfect paradise on Earth and has more than it's fair share of problems. If you didn't blame all of America's problems on the j00s secret, scheming, non-ethnically-based conspiracy group du jour, you might be able to come to accept that truth yourself.

Stop trolling.

No, actually, that's ironical.

[GGT]

Stop using words you don't know the meaning of.

FWIW, YOU are the biggest conspiracy theorist on here, and it's exactly shit like this that is the reason why. The Jews bankers and accountants and math quants and other Wall Street interests control the world. No, wait, big pharma does. No wait, now it's the Koch brothers. Anytime you see a policy or an SOP you don't agree with, it always the nefarious someones secretly wielding influence and pulling the strings of the government behind the scenes. It's bat-shit insane, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop projecting your inadequacies on me, thanks.

Oh, grow up. You're allegedly a fully grown adult. Please start acting the part. Fake if you have to.

We've been over this many times. Other people have told you many times. At this point, the only rational explanation is that you're either dumber than house plant or you're deliberately lying about me to try to make your twisted point. Whichever it is, stop. And while you're stopping things, stop getting personally offended whenever anyone [else] points out that your precious country isn't a perfect paradise on Earth and has more than it's fair share of problems. If you didn't blame all of America's problems on the j00s secret, scheming, non-ethnically-based conspiracy group du jour, you might be able to come to accept that truth yourself.

No, actually, that's ironical.

After I stopped laughing so hard I almost peed my pants, and after emptying my bladder while laughing, your post remains hilarious. And, ultimately, a joke you've made for your own entertainment. Because you maintain the idea that this is all just hilarious and hysterical "stuff", without putting ANY thought into it whatsoever. At the end of the gig, after the set is dismantled and the patrons leave, there's still a velvet curtain disguising the brick wall. Pull that away and the illusion ends abruptly.

Asshole.

[Aimless]

You know GGT you really picked the worst part of the article to quote. The first part describes how a Koch employee discovered the company's foreign subsidiaries engaged in bribery and got an internal investigation started that resulted in Koch making it clear that their subsidiaries were committing crimes (who knows, the head honchos in the US may or may not have known about it before, but whatever).

Later they describe how Koch has (until recently) circumvented US laws and been fined for various transgressions committed probably with the knowledge and permission of managers.

They go on to mention felonies committed, and tbh it makes you wonder why the company was just fined rather than individual managers and CEOs being tried and sentenced for, I dunno, manslaughter and the like.

Later the article commends Koch for its standards and its achievements.

Then there are more details and hey it's a good article that shows what absurd amounts of asshattery a sufficiently rich corporation can get away with. I'm amazed tbh

[Dreadnaught]

Long, detailed article. Good read. Though candidly, this doesn't seem to rise to the level of, "The Koch brothers are evil." The article seems to be a listing of every single bad thing that's happened at the company over the course of a decade.

Large companies amass violations, fines and criminal indictments. It's inevitable and it's just what they do. We usually take notice if the C-suite and/or board of directors is actively knowledgable and involved.

But this is frankly a lot of little stuff in the scheme of things. Companies are filled with people. People screw up, are misguided or do criminal things. I see nothing here to suggest the direction of Koch is fundamentally evil. Liberals hate the Koch brothers. Oh well.

[GGT]

Long, detailed article. Good read. Though candidly, this doesn't seem to rise to the level of, "The Koch brothers are evil." The article seems to be a listing of every single bad thing that's happened at the company over the course of a decade.

Large companies amass violations, fines and criminal indictments. It's inevitable and it's just what they do. We usually take notice if the C-suite and/or board of directors is actively knowledgable and involved.

But this is frankly a lot of little stuff in the scheme of things. Companies are filled with people. People screw up, are misguided or do criminal things. I see nothing here to suggest the direction of Koch is fundamentally evil. Liberals hate the Koch brothers. Oh well.

I thought it was a good read, too. Quite detailed and almost jumping over itself to present both sides. Koch industries is a philanthropic donor, see.

Not sure why anyone would say large corporations simply amass violations, fines and criminal indictments as "inevitable" parts of their business, though. Or why this kind of investigation is just "little" fish in the big pond. Unless you don't recall Enron.


*I'm also not sure how Dread can read that scathing report and say, "Liberals hate the Koch Brothers. Oh well". Well, maybe that's why Dread doesn't understand the protesters on Occupy Wall Street, or any other street of the 99% who are Mad as Hell?*

[LittleFuzzy]

I thought it was a good read, too. Quite detailed and almost jumping over itself to present both sides. Koch industries is a philanthropic donor, see.

Not sure why anyone would say large corporations simply amass violations, fines and criminal indictments as "inevitable" parts of their business, though. Or why this kind of investigation is just "little" fish in the big pond. Unless you don't recall Enron.

For the same reason any sort of "automatic WL" system without any means of dropping points over time must ultimately result in all of us being banned.

[wiggin]

Long, detailed article. Good read. Though candidly, this doesn't seem to rise to the level of, "The Koch brothers are evil." The article seems to be a listing of every single bad thing that's happened at the company over the course of a decade.

Large companies amass violations, fines and criminal indictments. It's inevitable and it's just what they do. We usually take notice if the C-suite and/or board of directors is actively knowledgable and involved.

But this is frankly a lot of little stuff in the scheme of things. Companies are filled with people. People screw up, are misguided or do criminal things. I see nothing here to suggest the direction of Koch is fundamentally evil. Liberals hate the Koch brothers. Oh well.

I mostly agree with you here. It's hardly uncommon for major corporations to be involved in various legal actions as a result of activities at their firms. Sometimes they are fairly 'benign' - patent issues and the like, without criminal intent. Often, though, there are broader scandals: bribes to clients or government officials, kickbacks, dodgy electioneering, fraud, environmental issues, labor issues, monopolistic practices, etc. It's obviously bad when these happen, and there's a reason they make news - we don't like to hear about major corporations messing with things, and more broadly, we should work to enforce level playing fields for all competitors.

But to an extent I would agree that some kinds of 'bad behavior' are nearly inevitable in a sufficiently large firm. The profit/performance incentives are incredibly high for people to compete unfairly, and in a sufficiently large organization there really isn't always someone looking over your shoulder to make sure things are being done appropriately. I can't think of a single large company in the US (say, over a $25 billion market cap) that doesn't have its legal issues. It's probably inevitable in such a large organization.

In fact, the same is probably true of governments. There are plenty of corrupt officials in any government, but what separates a hopelessly corrupt government from a generally functioning one is the institutional response to cases of corruption. Is there a widespread culture of illegality at Koch that sets it apart from other firms? I don't know; some information of the articles suggests there may have been at least in parts of the firm, but others suggest they've tried to respond to concerns and clean up their act. But in general I wouldn't say the mere existence of these issues implies there's something uniquely evil about the company.

[GGT]

Koch Industries and its affiliates are also private firms, not publicly traded or expected to be fully transparent.

I'm curious where the term EVIL originated? It surely wasn't from the Bloomberg investigation, or anything I posted. Has it really come to this---that when a huge multi-national corporation is exposed for either illegal and/or unethical behavior---that someone brings up the term EVIL?

[wiggin]

Take your pick, whichever angle hits a nerve....it's all in Bloomberg's investigative report. Koch Brothers and their practices, and how they intersect with money and power and government, are like poster children for so many things gone wrong in the US.

That's from your OP. I don't think it's true. "Evil" or not, there's certainly a bit of a sense in the article (esp. the title) that Koch Industries is somehow unique in its legal issues, which is hardly true.

[GGT]

That's from your OP. I don't think it's true. "Evil" or not, there's certainly a bit of a sense in the article (esp. the title) that Koch Industries is somehow unique in its legal issues, which is hardly true.

I copied the title directly, so if there's a problem with that, take it up with Bloomberg.

How is my OP statement not true? Is anyone naive enough to deny that large corporations do NOT intersect with money/power/government, or that Koch Industries are unique in this behavior? Even within the text of the investigation other corporate interests and influences are mentioned.

Or is someone trying to suggest the US doesn't have many things gone wrong?

I still don't see the word EVIL used until this forum had replies, and it wasn't from me.

[LittleFuzzy]

I copied the title directly, so if there's a problem with that, take it up with Bloomberg.

How is my OP statement not true? Is anyone naive enough to deny that large corporations do NOT intersect with money/power/government, or that Koch Industries are unique in this behavior? Even within the text of the investigation other corporate interests and influences are mentioned.

Or is someone trying to suggest the US doesn't have many things gone wrong?

I still don't see the word EVIL used until this forum had replies, and it wasn't from me.

Actually you were the first *according to a quick use of the Find Word function* though you didn't use it in relation to Koch and it was indeed in a reply and not the OP. But that's beside the point. Whether you actually used the word or not your attitude and perception of the entity (entities) this topic is about are such that a poster like Dread or I would use the term if we felt the same way. The adjective serves as shorthand, a mental/emotional reference point.

[GGT]

Actually you were the first *according to a quick use of the Find Word function* though you didn't use it in relation to Koch and it was indeed in a reply and not the OP. But that's beside the point. Whether you actually used the word or not your attitude and perception of the entity (entities) this topic is about are such that a poster like Dread or I would use the term if we felt the same way. The adjective serves as shorthand, a mental/emotional reference point.

Your reply is duly noted. Go back to braiding imaginary beards, or your own ass hair.

[LittleFuzzy]

Your reply is duly noted. Go back to braiding imaginary beards, or your own ass hair.

Bite me witch.

[GGT]

Bite me you incoherent and insane troll.

Eat me you pedantic professorial puss.

[CitizenCain]

the 99% who are Mad as Hell?*

It's probably not even 9%, and no matter how often you (or the occupy wall street nutjobs) say that you've got 99% of people on your side, you don't. You don't even have the majority of "liberals" on your side, FFS.

Asshole.

Go back to braiding imaginary beards, or your own ass hair.

Eat me you pedantic professorial puss.

Quoted for... well, the next time you go on a "Cain gets away with murder" kick.

[Aimless]

Eat me you pedantic professorial puss.

Fuzzy is pedantic but in this case he was just explaining what he meant--which was not something offensive or insulting--so you should probably let him do so. I regularly use the word "evil" in the same way, and I recall having to explain that to Loki once after he was all like ""





Re. criminal or inappropriate behaviour I once read an article where it was suggested that many corporations subtly encourage or pressure their managers and drones to do this sort of thing, eg. by having unreasonable demands and by looking the other way. As long as it's fairly secret no probs and they make lots of $$$. When it gets busted open the higher-ups can point fingers at the one "rogue" employee who just happened to be caught. But you know how it is, money is power and power corrupts.

[Lebanese Dragon]

Will you stop replyin to Cain already GGT.. his trolling is boring. He's just accusing you of being anti-jewish because you're posting something against some rich dudes.


On the Koch matter, I agree when you hav ea large staff and many levels of employees it's hard to micro-manage everything and see what's going on. Is employee X taking too long of breaks, is Manager B doing something shady. However, it is important to note when the management of the company itself is taking part then you're dealing a bad company depending on what they're doing legal action needs to be taken, and at worst case scenario the incarceration of the perpetrators.

[Dreadnaught]

Re. criminal or inappropriate behaviour I once read an article where it was suggested that many corporations subtly encourage or pressure their managers and drones to do this sort of thing, eg. by having unreasonable demands and by looking the other way. As long as it's fairly secret no probs and they make lots of $$$. When it gets busted open the higher-ups can point fingers at the one "rogue" employee who just happened to be caught. But you know how it is, money is power and power corrupts.

Most corporations I've worked with are larded with compliance training and lawyers. I've had compliance training twice a year that opens with the point about not selling/sending stuff to Iran.

[Ominous Gamer]

the training covers their asses for legal blowback, it doesn't nullify Aimless' point. I've seen it happen all the time in my jobs, everything to how Fedex loads trucks, Office Depot stocks shelves, to how the government around here deals with workers comp.

[CitizenCain]

Most corporations I've worked with are larded with compliance training and lawyers. I've had compliance training twice a year that opens with the point about not selling/sending stuff to Iran.

Well, it's not exactly like you ever get a call from the Iranian government either. They use proxies to buy the stuff from a country Americans are legally allowed to do business with, and then have it transported across the border. How do you think all these "enemy-nations" access the internet, or wind up with "made-in-America" servers and devices for their computing needs anyway? Yet somehow, IBM and Cisco (etc) are rarely even accused of selling stuff to Iran and the like.

Weird. It's almost like companies don't have a lot of control over what happens to their products once they're in a third party's hands. Well, except for the Koch brothers, who have well-known libertarian political leanings, and thus, they clearly conspired with the j00s and such to deliberately sell spandex and stain-resistant carpets to Iran, in violation of US law and basic human decency and blah blah.

the training covers their asses for legal blowback, it doesn't nullify Aimless' point. I've seen it happen all the time in my jobs, everything to how Fedex loads trucks, Office Depot stocks shelves, to how the government around here deals with workers comp.

The fact that practically every entity in the US has to use tricks like that to avoid a federal ass-raping doesn't say as much about the morality of every entity in the US as much as it says something about the stupidity and invasiveness of the modern regulatory state.

[Ominous Gamer]

The fact that practically every entity in the US has to use tricks like that to avoid a federal ass-raping doesn't say as much about the morality of every entity in the US as much as it says something about the stupidity and invasiveness of the modern regulatory state.

I understand what you are claiming, but its not what I remember seeing. I remember Fedex drivers overloading trucks to cut down on shipping times and the number of trailers needing moved, seriously putting the unloading peons as risk when they got to it (we considered that position the trial by fire guys in the warehouse). I remember boxes being moved around the warehouse in creative and unsafe ways to get around the lifting requirments. I remember Office Depot forcing people onto forklifts without training because the sole person who knew how didn't come in, I remember employees climbing shelves so that they wouldn't be put behind schedule while waiting with the rolling ladders. and the workers comp thing is all about reducing the county's financial obligation when it came to the insurance.

I remember the type of shit we would spend an hour watching an OSHA video on, then ignore because it wasn't efficient enough to fit into the time frame the managers wanted reached. Dangerous obviously, but hey, what are the chances?

[GGT]

Will you stop replyin to Cain already GGT.. his trolling is boring. He's just accusing you of being anti-jewish because you're posting something against some rich dudes.

On the Koch matter, I agree when you hav ea large staff and many levels of employees it's hard to micro-manage everything and see what's going on. Is employee X taking too long of breaks, is Manager B doing something shady. However, it is important to note when the management of the company itself is taking part then you're dealing a bad company depending on what they're doing legal action needs to be taken, and at worst case scenario the incarceration of the perpetrators.

This isn't just a thread "against some rich dudes", though. The Koch investigation does encompass things many people are angry about: corporate corruption, lobbyist power over legislators and regulators, the elected beholden to big money donors, multi-nationals breaking laws, deep pockets able to pay large fines but face no real legal consequences. It's about unethical (and sometimes illegal) activity with two sets of standards for the big money power brokers, and everyone else.

[CitizenCain]

and the workers comp thing is all about reducing the county's financial obligation when it came to the insurance.

I remember the type of shit we would spend an hour watching an OSHA video on, then ignore because it wasn't efficient enough to fit into the time frame the managers wanted reached. Dangerous obviously, but hey, what are the chances?

Well, that's what you deserve for working for evil kapitalist pig-dog whores like the county library. Rise up and occupy Library Street to protest the danger your evil 1%er bosses put you in to acquire more j00 gold!!!!! Demand more government regulation to protect you from the dangers of laboring under inefficient government regulation!!!

[GGT]

What happened to striving for Civility around here? The point about compliance training, managers ignoring safety issues in favor of riskier faster/cheaper bottom line work behavior....puts public AND private employees at risk. They're the ones that get injured or disabled, and may have to "pay" with their future ability to work. The people at the top tiers often get paid millions **or get re-elected** even when that means mismanagement, encouraging unethical behavior, or even taking a company **state or nation** to bankruptcy.

[Enoch the Red]

What happened to striving for Civility around here?

...

What happened to lead by example?