Does it have to be one or the other? Can I point out that Switzerland isn't exactly a shining example of democracy because they were a couple generations behind the rest of the world in granting women's suffrage, while simultaneously bashing them for giving women the vote at all... and get bonus points for making a cheap shot about the inability of the female human to process rational thought to any substantial degree?
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
Overall I think this a bad thing , I was hoping Greece would go ahead with the referendum and get kicked out of the EURO and hopefully the EU, as it would have been catalyst that prompted EU to develop the procedure for kicking countries out which would have benefited the EU in the long term.
Not to mention it would probably let me buy a nice house on the beach for under 100k.
No, you would have to use the past tense. Because you can't judge the current state on the past. I wasn't even born back then.Originally Posted by CitizenCain
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
No EJ, it's a thing. We've codified it into tWF Codex
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
This
Wraith should program a shortcut for it, right next to the shortcut for j00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000s
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Both buttons are in the advanced editor.
Not what I'm saying at all. Language barrier?
I'm pointing out that you can't really use Switzerland, as an example of how great direct democracy is/can be, on account of the fact that there are plenty of counter-examples that go to show that direct democracy can be pretty awful too - women's voting rights only granted in the 1970's, a lot of examples of populsit stupidity, passing racist or religiously prejudiced referendums, that whole xenophobia thing for the recent thread, etc.
You gotta be fucking kidding me. And I've been doing the calculation in my head the whole time. Do have any idea how hard it is to carry the 'j' 24 times? Man, they never teach anything in school that actually helps with real life situations.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
Paandreou on the way out. No referendum. I
Congratulations America
No not at all. But I still got you wrong. I thought you mean that our democracy is a bad example because of the fact that women couldn't vote. As I see now, you actually say it's not a shining example because you don't like the outcome of some referendums.
Well about that I can only say, being more democratic does in no way guarantee you better outcomes than being less. The point is to give those a say that are affected by the choices. A good dictator might outperform a bad parliament, as well as a good parliament can outperform the vote of the people. As for now, I don't see that we're doing worse than other systems.
The whole referendum seems to be a joke now. He should better step down earlier than later.Paandreou on the way out. No referendum. I
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Referendums from Germany or France would be the more poison pill.Paandreou on the way out. No referendum. I
The elephant in the room not many are talking about is.....how the hell can such a small country as Greece threaten to take down the euro zone or the euro currency, let alone the entire global financial industry? At face value it's a crazy concept, right? Like Delaware's debts tanking the whole American economy.
Global Financial Integration sounds great as a concept, but when a small nation like Greece can be the tiny straw that breaks the camel's back (or kill a whole damn herd of camels--plus goats, cows, pigs, fish and fowl) that must mean something is fundamentally and/or structurally wrong.
I'm still amazed and astounded that there was no "provision" for a euro nation defaulting, small or large. At the same time, I'm not surprised at all...since the US has no "provisions" for when a state or bank defaults, small or large.
Hell, we didn't even have alternate or back-up scenarios for what to do when SIFI (systemically important financial institutions) default, and we ended up with half-assed emergency rescue operations for AIG, Goldman, Citibank, Bank of America, and others, as Lehman fell. Our most trusted "experts" in Treasury and Federal Reserve (plus SEC, CFTC, and Comptroller of Currency) ended up with their hair on fire, trying to ignite Crisis Reaction in our legislators and financial leaders before the whole house of cards burnt to the ground.
At some point, people around the world take a clear look at the results and ask, "Who created this mess, and why were skeptics' warnings not heeded when this mess was created in the first place??
Just saw a poll from some Greek newspaper showing that only 14% of Greeks supported having a referendum. How weird.
Hope is the denial of reality
No, Loki. What's "weird" is you seeing one poll from some Greek newspaper that doesn't confirm your pre-conceived notions about the Greek populace, and calling that "weird". You're a Political Scientist and International Relations expert, and I'm surprised that you're surprised.
A public poll or a representative one?
I suppose those we agree with the cuts don't see any need for a referendum.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
It was mentioned in passing, but I believe it was a representative one. 68% wanted a new election, 14% wanted a referendum, and the rest were undecided.
Hope is the denial of reality
This was a referendum vs new election poll?
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Yeah, so I guess the people would prefer to have the PM resign rather than getting any say in what happens after. It's not like they like the opposition.
Hope is the denial of reality
I wouldn't be very surprised if democracy collapsed completely in Greece.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
The poll doesn't show the support of a referendum then. It could easily be possible that many of those who want a new election also support a referendum. The poll doesn't give a lot of information this way.Just saw a poll from some Greek newspaper showing that only 14% of Greeks supported having a referendum. How weird.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
At the very least it suggests they prefer an election to a referendum.
Hope is the denial of reality
Could have something to do with the popularity of Papandreou. Probably they don't see the point in a referendum where only one of the choices is acceptable.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Or they want to have their cake and eat it too: be able to attack the government for implementing the bailout terms while not acknowledging that the alternative is worse.
Hope is the denial of reality
Or maybe the people attacking government and those opposing a referendum are not the same. Austerity in Greece so fax has meant taxing those who can be taxed easily. The Papandreou government did nothing about making Greece more business friendly or reducing the bureacracy to the sort of size a country like Greece needs.
Congratulations America
Do you think the Greek population would vote for someone with the "big ideas" that need to happen?
Eh? Have you seen what the major Greek parties are and what they represent? The party in power was the one that had the highest chance of implementing reforms.
Hope is the denial of reality
a lot of people know that the system is rotten and neither Pasok nor ND will get them out of this mess. So why not?
Congratulations America
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