Why do we pardon animals?

[Lewkowski]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_791618.html

Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty (R) said Wednesday that he is "heartsick" over news that Jeremy Giefer, the sex offender that he pardoned 15 years after he had finished his prison sentence for statutory rape of a 14-year-old, is facing new allegations that he had sexually abused his own daughter more than 250 times both before and after he was exonerated in 2008. He then proceeded to defend the original decision of the pardon board.

The Associated Press reported this week that the new charges had surfaced, and a later examination of the claims by the Twin Cities City Pages shows that the alleged victim was the daughter he conceived in 1993 with an under-age girl who later became his wife.

The City Pages has some lurid details on the matter, which they sum up by explaining:

In fact, the complaint alleges, Giefer had been raping his daughter for about six years when Pawlenty granted him his extraordinary pardon.

In retrospect, Pawlenty admitted Wednesday, the pardon was probably not a good idea.

"Had this new information been available to the Board at the time of the pardon request, the pardon should not and would not have been granted," said in a statement, according to the Minneapolis Star Tribune.

Despite the nature of the new information, however, the potential presidential candidate also took a moment to defend the pardon:

"We all have to keep in mind that this pardon was granted many years after he had served his sentence and been out of jail for many years. ... The granting or not granting of the pardon wouldn't have changed his availability to commit future crimes or the crimes that he's alleged to have committed. We didn't let him out of jail."

Also complicating the matter is the nature of the pardon, which Giefer had requested in order to allow his wife to get a daycare license so they could open up a center at their residence.

***** ****

Well he's not as bad as that monster Huckabee (and sigh I used to love those Chuck Norris commercials) but Pawlenty is now my last choice for 2012. Why the hell are Republicans turning into soft on crime idiots. I'd have more respect if he legitimately apologized and promised to never pardon a sex offender again. One of the powers of the presidency is to pardon people. How can we trust someone who has proven to care more about animals then the innocent?

[Aimless]

where are you getting that from?

[RandBlade]

He was "pardoned 15 years after he had finished his prison sentence for statutory rape of a 14-year-old"

He wasn't released from jail, he'd already been out for 15 years.

Giefer was 19 when he had 'consensual' sex with his underage girlfriend whom he stayed with after she got pregnant, not too unusual. His sentence was 45 days in prison. He stayed with - and married - his girlriend and brought up his daughter in what seemed a normal relationship.

That he then went on to abuse his daughter from the age of 9 is sick and in an entirely different kettle of fish.

[Aimless]

RandBlade you animal, how dare you look at details and context? Why do you hate innocent children?

[earthJoker]

I stumble over the English term "statutory rape" every time I read it. It throws things together that shouldn't be together.

[Aimless]

it's sex that's defined as non-consensual by statute. I'm not sure we have that many terms for non-consensual sex besides "rape". Nothing short and catchy anyway. It needs to be short. May look like a minor thing hehe but with a couple of million trials and convictions the letters really begin to add up

[earthJoker]

Of course the German official term "Sexueller Missbrauch von Jugendlichen" is quite a bit longer, but it just feels better to me.

[Aimless]

Sexually abusing a minor doesn't exactly have good connotations

[Lewkowski]

He was "pardoned 15 years after he had finished his prison sentence for statutory rape of a 14-year-old"

He wasn't released from jail, he'd already been out for 15 years.

Giefer was 19 when he had 'consensual' sex with his underage girlfriend whom he stayed with after she got pregnant, not too unusual. His sentence was 45 days in prison. He stayed with - and married - his girlriend and brought up his daughter in what seemed a normal relationship.

That he then went on to abuse his daughter from the age of 9 is sick and in an entirely different kettle of fish.

A 14 year old can not consent. Therefore it was rape. The article is clear he wasn't released from prison by the pardon but the purpose of it was to let the family set up a day care... like for real? Who thinks that would be a good idea to have children in this sicko's home.

[Lor]

A 14 year old can not consent.

Aye, she must have been a mute.

[Aimless]

A 14 year old can not consent. Therefore it was rape. The article is clear he wasn't released from prison by the pardon but the purpose of it was to let the family set up a day care... like for real? Who thinks that would be a good idea to have children in this sicko's home.

I can't help but wonder how sick he was before going to prison and how sick he was after he got out

Btw, can a 15-y-o consent? A 16-y-o? 17? 18? Can a person who is under duress? Can a mentally ill person? Insight into your opinion on this question would be helpful

[earthJoker]

Sexually abusing a minor doesn't exactly have good connotations

Oh, the act itself is still bad, but it's not mixed up with rape.

[Aimless]

Oh, the act itself is still bad, but it's not mixed up with rape.

I meant that the name has negative connotations, which may still be a problem in iffy cases

[Lewkowski]

I can't help but wonder how sick he was before going to prison and how sick he was after he got out

Btw, can a 15-y-o consent? A 16-y-o? 17? 18? Can a person who is under duress? Can a mentally ill person? Insight into your opinion on this question would be helpful

IMO cut off should be 16. If society trusts you enough to operate a vehicle on the road then OK you can be considered an adult. And a person under duress, well forced compliance would be rape. Mentally ill depends on how mentally ill.

[Aimless]

I ask because clearly you have no problems with admitting eg. confessions from innocent people (often minors) who confess to crimes they haven't committed under duress and/or due to mental vulnerability.

In Sweden you have to be 18 to be allowed to drive on your own. Should the age of sexual consent be 18 here, in that case? The legal drinking age here is also 18, as is the voting age. For you that's 21 and 18 respectively, don't those strike you as more reasonable age limits for giving sexual consent?

[Aimless]

And of course because minors should be shot for stealing toothpaste just like anyone else.

[LittleFuzzy]

And of course because minors should be shot for stealing toothpaste just like anyone else.

Strangled.

[Aimless]

Terminated by whichever means the rightful toothpaste owner deems appropriate, but yeah

[earthJoker]

I meant that the name has negative connotations, which may still be a problem in iffy cases

Oh, well it shouldn't have a positive connotation, but to declare it rape is a bit over the top. It also went by the term "Verführung Minderjähriger" (Seduction of minors)

[Aimless]

Btw Lewk, if you're feeling unfairly targeted and misrepresented, I want to clarify that my questions are based on your past willingness to dismiss age as a relevant factor, as well as on your reluctance to distinguish between crimes ranging from filesharing and theft of toothpaste on the one hand to armed robbery on the other hand. In this case you're considering age to be very relevant, and you're giving sex a status separate from other actions.

[RandBlade]

A 14 year old can not consent. Therefore it was rape. The article is clear he wasn't released from prison by the pardon but the purpose of it was to let the family set up a day care... like for real? Who thinks that would be a good idea to have children in this sicko's home.

A 14 year old can not legally consent, but a 19 year old isn't a lawyer either. You really think a 19 year old is a "sicko" for liking a 14 year old?

[Lewkowski]

And of course because minors should be shot for stealing toothpaste just like anyone else.

A person defending his property doesn't need to check the mental state, age or anything else about the person violating his rights. Note: In the toothpaste story no minors were killed.

[Lewkowski]

A 14 year old can not legally consent, but a 19 year old isn't a lawyer either. You really think a 19 year old is a "sicko" for liking a 14 year old?

I think this case makes my point for me.

[Aimless]

Why is it okay to kill or jail minors and the mentally vulnerable (even when they're innocent) but "sick" and criminal to have sex with them? Why is your preferred age limit 16 for sexual consent when you can't vote before 18 or drink before 21?

[Lewkowski]

Why is it okay to kill or jail minors and the mentally vulnerable (even when they're innocent) but "sick" and criminal to have sex with them? Why is your preferred age limit 16 for sexual consent when you can't vote before 18 or drink before 21?

Sixteen being an age where kids can take adult responsibilities. I always support trying 16 year olds as an adult for crimes. I think the age of 16 is appropriate for driving. That is where I draw my conclusion that 16 is an OK age for consent. I believe at 16 you can also be emancipated from your parents in most states but I'm too lazy to look that up at this time.

[RandBlade]

I think this case makes my point for me.

This case makes no point, there are countless teenagers each year who have sex with younger partners that are technically below the age of consent, that is normal.

Middle-aged men having sex with 9 year old daughters, that is not.

These two cases are a world apart.

Are you saying a 16 year old who has sex with a 15 year old is a sicko who must be put on a sex offenders register for life?

[Illusions]

So what happens if a 14 year old and another 14 year old have sex? Jail both of them for statutory rape? Then never pardon them for it? I guess we'll also have to list them as sex offenders too.

[Lewkowski]

So what happens if a 14 year old and another 14 year old have sex? Jail both of them for statutory rape? Then never pardon them for it? I guess we'll also have to list them as sex offenders too.

Adult with child = statutory rape. So 14 and 14 is not going to be a criminal offense. Though they shouldn't be having sex at that age for a whole bunch of reasons.

[Illusions]

Adult with child = statutory rape. So 14 and 14 is not going to be a criminal offense. Though they shouldn't be having sex at that age for a whole bunch of reasons.

So what about Rand's example with a 15 year old and a 16 year old. Or how about a 15 year and 364 day old and a 16 year old?

[Enoch the Red]

I think this case makes my point for me.

It wasn't so long ago that 14 wasn't too young to be married, pregnant, and barefoot in the kitchen Lewk. Are many of our forefathers 'sickos' and sexual predators too?