Growth 101

[GGT]

Let's combine soft and hard sciences, then apply them to real life cultural (and political) dilemmas.

Children "grow", even if deprived of nutrition or knowledge. Stunted growth, perhaps, but growth nonetheless. Some of that growth comes naturally, biologically, with homeostasis as the conceptual theory. Just look at the starving and dehydrated populations in the horn of Africa....where procreation finds its way, under conditions that seem impossible.

There's a difference between growth for survival, and growth for progress. Early in our western history, women might have given birth to four or five children, just to have one or two children live beyond their second birthdays. Agrarian families needed lots of kids to keep the family farm working. Until our culture became less agrarian and more techno-logical....

Science helped to change all that. Whether it was improved human medical/health, veterinarian science, hybrid seeds or farming techniques and machinery. Growth 101 became something interactive and interconnected. Individual procreation didn't matter so much, when one person could command a thousand acres of farming crops or hundreds of herds of animals, without using one single family member's labors.

Fortunes could be made (using hungry or desperate low wage workers, not fortunate enough to be borne into a land-owner family) and passed onto a single heir. That was the model for early American plantation owners, using slave labor who added value to productive land. Was that really Growth....progressive Growth?

Is that the psychology behind the political effort of a "Homeownership Society" that eventually backfired in the 21st century? Using centuries old theories about Land Owners as Power Brokers, and leaders of Growth and Progress?

[GGT]

Y'all can comment on government policy, too. If stimulus or deficit spending is a Growth Initiative, or not.

Seems to me the body politic isn't much different than the body human, except for the "politicking" part.

[CitizenCain]

Children "grow", even if deprived of nutrition or knowledge. Stunted growth, perhaps, but growth nonetheless.

No, they don't; they die. And not just children either, for future reference. Adults, animals, and even plants also die when deprived of nutrition.

[EyeKhan]

I read just the other day that the brain is the last organ to get deprived of nutrients in starving, malnourished children.

[Lebanese Dragon]

According to all we know those kids will be very behind socially, cognitively, and in physical prowess (co-ordinization, muscle building etc....) In fact, anything started later in life (any skill) physical or intellectual or social is worse as your brain has more solidly form and cannot as easily re-wire itself to be more proficient or strong at that task as in youth, plus the raw added years of experience on those topics to those who start young.

Even say poor families in the U.S. perhaps in general have some social disadvantages to wealthy kids, or our society as a whole is underdeveloped socially because of the fact politics and social awareness is not taught as it perhaps once was when our society was more community based as opposed to independant based. There is so many angles to branch from your starting part but I agree they are worse off and not just physically, and that the same type of "lagging behind" malnourished and undertaught kids face, socieites can be "malnourished" and face stunted growth in ways as well.

I read just the other day that the brain is the last organ to get deprived of nutrients in starving, malnourished children.

Interesting...

[Flixy]

Interesting, but hardly surprising - it's the most important organ to stay alive.

[CitizenCain]

Interesting maybe, but also not completely true, given that parts of the brain are extremely susceptible to malnutrition, particularly in babies and children. Overall, sure, the brain's always getting nutrients, but that's because the "lower level" brain functions are required for life. If your brain stem stops processing, you die (and that's hardly the only part you need to keep living). So it's tautological to say the brain is the last organ to stop receiving nutrition, because the condition that occurs when the lower brain stops receiving nutrition is more commonly known as death.

Higher brain functions, however, will get shut down before vital organs... which is how you end up with comatose people, for example. And during development (childhood), malnutrition can result in permanent loss of cognitive ability, so that's not really a good thing. Just another interesting example of how surprisingly resilient life is, and how much damage it can sustain before "giving up the ghost."

[GGT]

No, they don't; they die. And not just children either, for future reference. Adults, animals, and even plants also die when deprived of nutrition.

No, only starvation and dehydration kills. Deprivation of nutrition isn't necessarily lethal. Life finds a way, even if the outcome isn't optimal. Whether it's from a bowl of rice or corn mush, fried locusts, a protein bar, or McDonald's dollar menu. The quality matters in the long run, though.

Growth 101 includes the quality of our leaders and government, what passes for "getting by" as good 'nuff, or "progressing" for a long future. IF the US is either a toddler or teenaged nation, Starving the Beast is a bad idea. We need nutrition and knowledge; better education and healthcare, better governance, more patriotism and nationalism. Soft and hard science suggests that's what we need. More and better, not less.

But just look at us now, using up our muscle reserves as the fat is cut. Many thought of the US like Atlas holding the globe, once strong enough to carry the world. Now we're practically eating ourselves and our young, in a struggle to keep up that image. No marathon can be won on the dollar menu diet.




Oh yeah, and the early American plantation land owner using slave labor for their own family's growth wasn't an accidental metaphor. Trickle down economics didn't work then, and it's not working now. We still have distinct class/gender/racial divides, and it's still true that most success can be measured by our [accidental] genealogy or parentage.

[CitizenCain]

No, only starvation and dehydration kills.

Starvation, AKA, complete nutrient deprivation.

Nutrient deprivation very much *is* fatal, actually, which is why you'll die living on water alone after about 6 weeks, even if you have plenty of body fat to burn for energy. If you don't believe me, try it at home. Don't have fat to lose? Spike your water with sugar. You'll be able to maintain weight [theoretically], and your organs will still shut down, and you'll still die in a month or two.

Growth 101 includes the quality of our leaders and government, what passes for "getting by" as good 'nuff, or "progressing" for a long future. IF the US is either a toddler or teenaged nation, Starving the Beast is a bad idea. We need nutrition and knowledge; better education and healthcare, better governance, more patriotism and nationalism. Soft and hard science suggests that's what we need. More and better, not less.

But just look at us now, using up our muscle reserves as the fat is cut. Many thought of the US like Atlas holding the globe, once strong enough to carry the world. Now we're practically eating ourselves and our young, in a struggle to keep up that image. No marathon can be won on the dollar menu diet.

So now the government is like a human body, huh? Well, it sprays an acidic toxins from the front and dumps shit everywhere... but that's about the end of the similarities.

more patriotism and nationalism.

Patriotism is:

The virtue of the vicious.
The willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.
The conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.
And...
The arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.

Patriots are idiotic bigots who kill each other over trivial or non-existent reasons. I hope you're all very happy together, until you decide to butcher each other en masse, that is. Of course, until you do, it would be fantastic if you'd leave everyone with a functioning brain on their shoulders out of our petty pissing contest/self-destructive spiral.

Oh yeah, and the early American plantation land owner using slave labor for their own family's growth wasn't an accidental metaphor. Trickle down economics didn't work then, and it's not working now. We still have distinct class/gender/racial divides, and it's still true that most success can be measured by our [accidental] genealogy or parentage.

Socialism was devised by Satanists and its insidious goal is to turn all children into sexual playtoys and all adults into food.

See, I can make insane and completely unsupported claims too.

[GGT]

Way to miss the big picture, Cain.

[CitizenCain]

The big picture being that if we could join together in a common vision, think well enough of ourselves, pump up our hatred of foreigners and blindly devote ourselves to the arbitrary real estate in which we were born, we could reclaim our rightful place as rulers of the world and God's chosen people, which we are, because we were born in this country and not one those other ones?

No, I got it, it's just utter shit.

You're complaining that Murikans aren't banding together into some hive mind to solve every other Murikan's problems, based on the deep, unbreakable bond we all share of having been born, or moved to the same 9.6 million square km patch of land, but it's just not an option, because the evil Wall Street Banker Madison Avenue Executive Republican Nazi j00s are conspiring to prevent it.

Not because I couldn't give half a shit what happens to the guy 2 streets over, let alone in some other corner of the continent, or that I deeply resent and loathe the tens (hundreds?) of millions of "fellow" Americans who think they should get half my shit. Naw, it's the Wall Street Banker Madison Avenue Executive Republican Nazi j00s or lack of thinking happy thoughts, or not enough vicious virtues and human measles that's keeping Americans from their birthright as rulers of the universe.

That's why we're not living in a utopia, and it has nothing to do with the fact that we've spent the last century too busy stealing from other to bother bettering our lots.

[GGT]

Wrong again, Cain. Well, partially right. If you don't give a damn about your neighbor two streets over, you don't really care about (or understand) our new economy and how it's connected to others' successes and failures. Two streets down or across oceans to Asia or developing nations. They myth of decoupling has been exposed, whether it's from our immediate neighbors or commercial partners in Europe or Asia.

We don't have to be considered the Superpower of the world in order to prioritize basic fundamentals for our own citizens. Jobs, income, living wages, affordable housing and healthcare, *education* and retirement plans. We don't have to strive for utopia or perfection in order to expect basic competency from our officials. AND we don't have to trade these things in exchange for being the Superpower police and military of the world, either.

[CitizenCain]

We don't have to be considered the Superpower of the world in order to prioritize basic fundamentals for our own citizens. Jobs, income, living wages, affordable housing and healthcare, *education* and retirement plans.

How about, instead of that, "fuck those stupid, useless cunts."

There we go, I just solved the country's 212 trillion dollar debt mountain.

I'll keep my money, all my money, and you and every other idiot who wants to feel a sense of patrinatiowarmfuzzydumbassism can donate 800% of your earnings to helping every fool who borrowed too much, saved too little, retired too soon, or just plain got unlucky.

I don't give a fuck. In fact, a lot of those assholes, the ones who somehow think I owe them something for busting my ass and catching a very occasional good break in the face of the government interference they advocate, I'd be happy to see dead. I'm no sadist, so they don't have to suffer, but I, and the world as well, would be better off without them. The world's got more than enough actual parasites, as in parasitic species, without every dumb and/or unlucky human jumping onto that classification.

And that, along with basic logic and common sense, is the primary failing of your "idea." Everyone has to give a shit about everyone else and give over huge piles of money to others in order for it to work. And the "TEA Party" movement is proof that tens of millions of Americans, like me, are fucking sick and tired of having half their shit stolen, above all other issues in the world today.

So, nope, sorry, not gonna work, never gonna happen, and not even a worthy goal in the first place.

[GGT]

Please, recall that I started the original Ron Paul Revolution thread. I'm not against new ideas or perspectives. Indeed, I think we absolutely need them to challenge any rigid belief system, and should welcome "thinking outside the box" over status quo bullshit.

Not giving a fuck doesn't really work, does it? That just increases your anger and frustration at things happening around you, and your sense of lack of control. Then you start to believe the only control you have is....owning guns and shooting anyone who trespasses on your private property. That might "work" in rural areas, but not for urban dwellers. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the US rural areas are shrinking as the population grows. Rural became suburban or ex-urban, but civility didn't disappear.

Not many Americans would expect to be greeted with a shotgun in their face, just for ringing a doorbell. (Census enumerators would probably disagree.)

It's clear, you claim to not give a fuck about many things, Cain. Is that why you left Canada and emigrated to the US, and signed up for our military service? Did you not give a fuck so much that you'd want your parents to be participants victims of our US healthcare system?

Seriously, for someone who claims to not give a fuck about much of anything....you certainly seem to give a fuck about certain things.

[Loki]

The only reason you supported Paul was because he was against the status quo. You didn't seem to care that you're on record opposing just about every one of his major policy proposals.

[GGT]

The only reason you supported Paul was because he was against the status quo. You didn't seem to care that you're on record opposing just about every one of his major policy proposals.

I was interested in Paul because my son was a young, burgeoning libertarian. I found an affinity for some of his proposals, like auditing the Federal Reserve. He was the first elected official that "inspired" me to research monetary policy. Because, you do know, that not everyone chooses a business or financial degree, right? Nothing in my HS or university nursing education had led me to explore that area of public policy, monetary policy, what the Federal Reserve or central bankers actually DID, or how it affected everyday life.

I credit Libertarians like Ron Paul, and some Tea Party people, for opening up our national dialogue, and forcing an examination of our fundamental foundations (that used to go un-examined). I don't have to call myself a Republican or Tea Party person in order to respect what they offer our nation's voters.

[Loki]

That's like saying that there are merits to Nazism, because it called for unemployment benefits and more vacation time.

[GGT]

That's like saying that there are merits to Nazism, because it called for unemployment benefits and more vacation time.

Only in your mind, Loki.

Look, I have begun more than one thread, stating our current anemic economic growth, lack of new jobs, abysmal unemployment and underemployment. Mostly I've been met by people like Loki, Dread, or Cain, telling me I just don't understand economics, or how capitalism "works". Things aren't as bad as portrayed by the media, oh yeah, and ignore government stats, too. Pish posh, everything will be fine. All we have to do is.....elect those promising tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations. Their prosperity will trickle down to workers, dontyaknow?

Never mind that hasn't happened in at least a decade, probably two. The theory is still valid, and that's where they stake their claim. Much easier to say I'm just an ignorant dufus than to admit economic theories from academic economists just haven't panned out.

[CitizenCain]

Please, recall that I started the original Ron Paul Revolution thread. I'm not against new ideas or perspectives. Indeed, I think we absolutely need them to challenge any rigid belief system, and should welcome "thinking outside the box" over status quo bullshit.

Right but that's the problem. You don't judge ideas or perspectives based on their merits, but rather based their level of opposition to the status quo, while simultaneously expecting, advocating and even demanding that the government do something to fix everything, particularly those things not actually broken.

You're a great example of cognitive dissonance, actually, in the way you simultaneously rail against the status quo, but also demand government-mandated solutions to everything (which is, of course, the current status quo in as far as it concerns the modern Leviathan state). It'd be funny and even a bit endearing if you didn't wield any political power, or influence those who do. But since you do, it's just dangerous and harmful.

Not giving a fuck doesn't really work, does it?

Works great for me. Dunno what you're doing wrong that it doesn't work for you... maybe it's that cognitive dissonance thing, where you don't give a fuck, while simultaneously caring a great deal? That would mess it up.

Seriously, for someone who claims to not give a fuck about much of anything....you certainly seem to give a fuck about certain things.

Right, because part of being human is either caring about everything, or caring about nothing. I've asked before, and I'll ask again... what drugs are you on, and where do I get some? They seem like they'd provide me with an incredibly interesting altered state of consciousness.

Mostly I've been met by people like Loki, Dread, or Cain, telling me I just don't understand economics, or how capitalism "works".

Yes, and it's truly incredible that you still manage not to get it in spite of all that. And that you seem proud of and encouraged by your inability to learn from those with more knowledge than you. Heh, KOTH flashback... "I am a proud ignorant woman and no one is going to change that!"

A'ight, good luck with that and what not.

[GGT]

Nope. You're way off track, Cain. I don't expect, demand or advocate that government do something to fix everything, or demand gov't mandated solutions to everything. But I do recognize gov't plays important roles in civilizations, with 6 billion people on the planet and growing.

We've got lots of "broken" things, from our dysfunctional politics to our sluggish economy. None of that's imaginary or 'cognitive dissonance' on my part, so WTF are you taking that you'd disagree? The Great Recession (or Great Regression), financial/banking crisis, housing crash, changing economies, unemployment, shrinking middle class, ageing society, crappy healthcare and education, broke and bankrupt municipalities, states (and nations)....that's all real. But carry on with your ranting about my mental state, I guess.

I'm quite interested in what those with more knowledge than me have to say about all of the above issues, how we'll grow our way back to prosperity, and how it will affect society Would those be the same people like Greenspan or Bernanke--who said the sup-prime crisis was contained, or that derivatives and CDOs weren't WMD but 'innovative financial tools'? Economists--who said this was just a regular business cycle or a run-of-the-mill recession? Legislators and Paulson--who thought it was a great idea to bail out the banks without strings attached? Or would that be politicians--who claim all we have to do is cut taxes and spending, during three war interventions, for the Good Times to roll again?

[CitizenCain]

'A'ight, whatever, let me know if you ever re-establish a connection to reality (or some facsimile thereof) and we might have something to discuss then. Though... I am slightly curious as to how you can claim to be interested in the opinions of those more knowledgeable than you when you reject any opinion you don't like out of hand and rant about expert opinions being useless compared to the ignorant ideas of the Common Man. Or should I just write that off as more cognitive dissonance/delusion on your part and accept it as another instance of pathetilarilty?

[GGT]

That's an interesting twist on things. I've been discussing topics covered in the news and debated by businesses, economists and politicians. Not just in the US but all over the world. When your opinions consist of telling me I'm making shit up, being stupid or over-reactionary, you're the delusional one. Rather hard to have a discussion when you deny reality.

Even many "experts" are admitting they're not sure what to do, what theory would work in practice, or how they could be caught surprised at the depth and breadth of recent years' stagnation and regression. But by all means, blame it on me, the Common Man, and our pathetilarity.