Wheel of Time MoL (spoilers)

[Parmenio]

So finished the book yesterday and thought of this place... then saw Hazir drop some nostalgia on the site and figured i'd open with a general discussion thread for old times sake, no idea if we even have enough on here to make a go of it... trying to even think of some of those I started out with...Dark Blight, Saidar, Isam (love to get a series synopsis from him), Avi, Larry Homer, RB (of course)...

So some surprises, some things that have long been anticipated, some things that didn’t get resolved, others that did….

I loved that the most hated (IIRC from Atari forums) character in the series died, Gawyn. I liked that he died like a chump too, he was doomed the moment he laid eyes on Egwene. Only thing better was that she followed him shortly thereafter, again I was glad of that, her death was decent too, a good death as they say, but one I was glad with none the less. Those two were annoying more than anything.

I hated Gawyn, which who I liked right up till the tower split, I mean he chooses Elaida not because he likes her, but because he didn't like that Siuan didn't tell him all that Elayne/Ege were up to? Even though he knows that both would easily have chosen Siuan over Elaida, even after he knows that Elaida is trying to have his ass killed. His girl, Egwene, has been with Rand for much of his post DR life and vouches that Rand is incapable of killing his mom, and his sister is even impregnated with his babies.. he still gets some dumbass hate of Rand (which only resolves late in the last book, but you can tell still lingers). Most unrealistic character flaw in the series, because after realizing that Elaida has been trying to kill him and he wonders for many books doing nothing, not returning to Elayne, or trying to find Ege (realizing that she's the rival amyrlin), he just jumps ship to the SAS.... I could go on but good damn riddance.

I thought him dying while being aided with those bloodknife ter’angreal’s was classic, basically we all wanted to know who was the better blade, Gawyn beating Hammar (and other Warders) and then those three bloodknives looked about as good as they got, but Galad was better than Gawyn and Lan was better than Galad, and Lan as things ends appears to have been the best blade in all of Randland. (side note when Lan is fighting Demandred I was rather shocked that Demandred for a moment thought he could have been Asmodean, who I didn’t think knew one side of a blade from another, but if he thought of him as possibly being that good he had to be something, would have liked to see more of that)

[Parmenio]

I'm just going to post this, and see if anyone has even read the series....

I thought it was rather forced the way they tried to nonchalantly add a couple gay characters in the books, I chalk this up to Sanderson as well. I think some critics complaints were heard so BS decided to add something in, it makes no sense for a 14 book series not to mention anything resembling gay characters then to add two small lines to a couple characters that just showed up. It seems like he wrote the book then said “damn we need to have a couple characters that are gay, lets see they can’t be Darkfriends that would imply that I/RJ thinks gay’s are going to be attracted to the Dark, which would comeback and bite me in the ass, so how about this guy and this guy”… It’s not a huge deal, but I chuckled at it none the less.

We still never saw some out and out Lesbians in the series I don’t think, I mean we know that some women were “pillow friends” and that Sea Folk lady hooked up but she was just doing it for convenience, and so too was the implication of pillow friends. Although I’m sure that many think the Red were all lesbians, which there is some evidence for, but by lesbian to mean a woman who prefers women and wouldn’t accept anything but women (which is the inference of the two gay guys, that they wouldn’t touch a woman), that I don’t think we’ve seen.

[LittleFuzzy]

I'm just going to post this, and see if anyone has even read the series....

I thought it was rather forced the way they tried to nonchalantly add a couple gay characters in the books, I chalk this up to Sanderson as well. I think some critics complaints were heard so BS decided to add something in, it makes no sense for a 14 book series not to mention anything resembling gay characters then to add two small lines to a couple characters that just showed up. It seems like he wrote the book then said “damn we need to have a couple characters that are gay, lets see they can’t be Darkfriends that would imply that I/RJ thinks gay’s are going to be attracted to the Dark, which would comeback and bite me in the ass, so how about this guy and this guy”… It’s not a huge deal, but I chuckled at it none the less.

We still never saw some out and out Lesbians in the series I don’t think, I mean we know that some women were “pillow friends” and that Sea Folk lady hooked up but she was just doing it for convenience, and so too was the implication of pillow friends. Although I’m sure that many think the Red were all lesbians, which there is some evidence for, but by lesbian to mean a woman who prefers women and wouldn’t accept anything but women (which is the inference of the two gay guys, that they wouldn’t touch a woman), that I don’t think we’ve seen.

A) lot of sisterhoods going around. As you say, we know they were getting some but it's ridiculous to suggest that all such contact is purely because "they can't find a penis" B) yeah, any more direct references probably were probably a Sanderson addition. I'd developed the impression that Jordan was a fairly regular example of the "classic US conservative." I doubt he was comfortable bringing up homosexuality in his writing.

[Parmenio]

A) lot of sisterhoods going around. As you say, we know they were getting some but it's ridiculous to suggest that all such contact is purely because "they can't find a penis" B) yeah, any more direct references probably were probably a Sanderson addition. I'd developed the impression that Jordan was a fairly regular example of the "classic US conservative." I doubt he was comfortable bringing up homosexuality in his writing.

I wonder about the guy myself, I recall an interview where he said something like "the women were all very liberated because the women's lib movement happened many turnings of the wheel ago", which to me means that he didn't understand why women needed to be "liberated" in the first place.

I would agree he never struck me as one who would feel comfortable with the specific sexual interactions of his characters, more of a leave it up to the reader kind of stuff, he alluded to some of his characters Lothario ways he didn't describe them in detail (as I think someone had to ask him about Mat and having sex and RJ told the person that Mat has had a lot of sex in his life).

[Parmenio]

Demandred
So for the longest time everyone wanted the Taimandred theory to be true, even though RJ was telling us that it was wrong. I don’t know what to think about Shara showing up like it did, on the one hand it makes sense, but on the other why wouldn’t anyone be the least bit curious what was going on over there? We always wanted to see some of what happened over there but never got anything till the last book...

Also it seems to be the point that the Sharan’s followed Demandred for there own prophecy reasons, and they weren’t all a bunch of Darkfriend’s, his conversation with that lady he had affections for being the only point it was addressed. I would have liked to have a little more info on Shara because of this. Do they have Trollocs and Fades there? I mean if they are like Seanchan then I can see it more, but it if they do it seems rather specious to think that they arrive to battle the WT etc and then have no issues with being on the side of the Dark as Demandred wondered. Or are they so subservient it doesn’t matter. Anyway you slice it one perspective from someone in Shara would have been much better than nothing.

Also I loved that Demandred was developing some actual feelings for a woman, only because one of RJ’s weak points was always the one dimensional character that the Forsaken were. I didn’t like that none of them had anything resembling a personality outside of their hatred of someone something etc. Like Demandred/Sammael’s hate of Lews Therin, or Lanfear’s love of him, Semi’s love of hurting others etc. Honestly I chalk that one up to Sanderson, don’t think RJ ever thought like that, at least when it came to the Forsaken.

[Aimless]

I love Brandon's novels, and I love the fact that he finished WoT. I think that he was almost certainly the best person for the for the job. I have many gripes with his WoT-books, esp. MoL, but they're all outweighed by my appreciation and enjoyment.

One of the things I loved most about Brandon's WoT-books is the way he did justice to several secondary characters. He's good at humanising even minor characters by getting into their heads and leveraging their relationships with other characters. The best examples of this skill, I think, are Perrin and Tam. Perrin had gotten stuck--or lost--on his journey, his personal development, and Sanderson finally guided him back. It took a lot of time and a great deal of genuine caring for the character as well as for the very concept of "personal development". Tam was also brought to life in a masterful way, indirectly, through his interactions with Rand whose long-foreshadowed development, in turn, was handled brilliantly. These were important to me, while the attempted "fleshing out" of the Forsaken was not as important. I kinda liked the ostensibly one-dimensional portrayal of the 'saken because it made them larger than life--and, later, put into perspective: so very, very small. It also made the glimpses of their other sides all the more tantalising.

Some of the things I disliked most about Brandon's WoT-books are: his inability to get some of the voices right--Mat being the most notable failure; his constant Brandonisms, the jarring 4th-wall-breaking terminology, phrasing, minor plot events; the unnecessary geeky fanboyish things like all that business with gateways; the preoccupation with answers to questions that begin with, "Wouldn't it be cool if...". Most of these issues are bearable but I was really kinda irritated by much of the "conventional" fighting in the LB because so much of it felt like the unnecessary and kinda mediocre "epic action" that blighted the LotR movies.

For all that the LB is/was supposed to be the epic climax of WoT, the WoT story is about far greater things than the sword-swinging and gate-slinging of the LB. One of the things I appreciated most about Jordan's story was that sense of the story being about far bigger, far weirder--perhaps unfathomable--things. Not simply a bigger plot/plan, but about observations and lessons that encompass the entirety of human existence. About how good and evil or right and wrong are real and separate, even though it's hard for humans to see the difference between them. About how we are doomed to repeat our mistakes, how we're chained to history. About how we're compelled by our nature to fight that grim hope-crushing reality. About the carefully crafted spear Jordan wanted to shove right through the heart of nihilism. About acceptance and about letting go in a good way.

On every level of the story, Jordan, IMO, was good at conveying that sense of people and their actions being a part of something bigger, stranger. I honestly don't feel that Brandon did that as well as Jordan did, or as well as he himself does in his own books. I think that's part of the reason why I was pretty irritated with eg. Brandon's handling of the Aiel and the Aes Sedai.

Still. Putting down the book after reading the final sentence... that "It's over and already fading" feeling... wow. I was a very happy and thoroughly spent boy. Read the first 3/4ths in one session and the remainder the following day. The highlights, for me, were Rand's sparring session with Tam, Lan's fight with Demandred, and Rand's shocking realisation about his imagined utopia. Oh, and that poem

[Parmenio]

One of the things I loved most about Brandon's WoT-books is the way he did justice to several secondary characters. He's good at humanising even minor characters by getting into their heads and leveraging their relationships with other characters. The best examples of this skill, I think, are Perrin and Tam. Perrin had gotten stuck--or lost--on his journey, his personal development, and Sanderson finally guided him back. ... Tam was also brought to life in a masterful way, indirectly, through his interactions with Rand whose long-foreshadowed development, in turn, was handled brilliantly. These were important to me, while the attempted "fleshing out" of the Forsaken was not as important. I kinda liked the ostensibly one-dimensional portrayal of the 'saken because it made them larger than life--and, later, put into perspective: so very, very small. It also made the glimpses of their other sides all the more tantalising.

I would agree with his development of Perrin, I really really hated the way RJ ended writing Perrin, he was like Gawyn, just meandering about not doing anything and living in a dream world, I really hated his parts in Ghealdan and the The Prophet (he knew the guy was mad as a hatter, but he couldn't think for himself that perhaps he had to take action on his own he just had to do whatever Rand told him), also his search for Faile was more aggravating than anything, his sulky ways should have taken about a book if that. I loved his finally training in TAR, last book those were some of my favorites, to the point I missed more of him in this last one. I would agree that I liked the way Tam and Rand interacted, good development.

When I read a one dimensional character I have never enjoyed it, they don't seem real and more like paper cutouts that are only meant to be obstacles, like an inanimate being, but that's me.

Some of the things I disliked most about Brandon's WoT-books are: his inability to get some of the voices right--Mat being the most notable failure; his constant Brandonisms, the jarring 4th-wall-breaking terminology, phrasing, minor plot events; the unnecessary geeky fanboyish things like all that business with gateways; the preoccupation with answers to questions that begin with, "Wouldn't it be cool if...". Most of these issues are bearable but I was really kinda irritated by much of the "conventional" fighting in the LB because so much of it felt like the unnecessary and kinda mediocre "epic action" that blighted the LotR movies.

Agree with the voice, Mat I absolutely agree, I knew that would be the toughest thing to get right, especially a character that just about everyone had as their favorite, but I didn't let it really get to me.

I actually liked the gateway stuff, I didn't think it was fanboi stuff because it seemed logical, and to me if something is "discovered" then the first thing you do is see how you can use it most effectively, to me I thought it was about damn time someone started to actually think about how to use something instead of just rely on a deus ex machina to solve their problems (see how Ege died, that is perfect example of pulling a rabbit out of a hat, which I loath about all Fantasy).

I see how others could disagree, but I think it's frustrating that people weren't trying to use new weaves for novel purposes, like the way Androl snagged the seals from Taim, my reactions were more like "it's about time someone actually thought about this for a second", I don't think RJ would have done it and it really annoyed me, too conservative. RJ will have Nyn discover how to heal the unhealable, and Ege can find something to counter Balefire, but it's like if it doesn't come from the subconscious it isn't worthy, it's that type of thinking that is the single biggest reason I don't much care for Fantasy, no one earns anything they just create it out of thin air.

[Parmenio]

Elayne...

So if anyone is wondering Elayne has a large role in this book, ignore the fact that she’s quite possibly the single worst monarch in the history of monarch’s! I mean this is a woman who runs into more crap because she can’t think straight than anyone in the book (even Egwene...).

In this book the forces of the Light unite under her, she is the ultimate commander of everyone, then delegates who does what from there….. Let me compile a list of why Elayne is just a horrible monarch: (this is just off the top of my head, it’s not all inclusive)

1) She gets duped by Liandrin in TDR but she doesn’t get collard like Ege, still not all that bright and it’s this running away that starts several characters to question and to start sour on the WT.

2) She along with Ege and Nyn gets nabbed by a Fade and saved by Rhuarc and Avi in TDR.

3) She also gets caught in the Stone of Tear and saved by Mat and Juilin in TDR.

4) She knows that her mom is in trouble and some guy in her palace was trying to have her killed and decides to go running after the BA instead of trying to help her people.

5) After Tanchico she gets nabbed by forkroot and gets sprung by Thom and Juilin.

6) Again instead of sending word to mother, a reason that the WT might try to find her ass, she is the daughter air and Morgase is pissed off, she goes to the SAS and paddles around there

7) She goes off to find Bowl of Winds, but can’t do crap till she relents and lets Mat help her, but would have been killed by Gholam but Mat saves her ass again.

8) Her first negotiation with anyone of significance, something you’d think a Daughter Air would learn about, is a disgraceful one with the Sea Folk that Ege has to try to renegotiate after she is Amyrlin.

9) Because she was off dealing with other things when she gets back to Andor she has to kill many of her countrymen to secure her throne.

10) Promotes Daved Hanlon to a captain of her guard thus propagating one of the worst evil characters in the series (the guy is a hack and everyone knows it, but she decides to propagate the idea that he fathered her children, even more idiotic).

11) Her idiotic relying on Min’s viewing to do stupid ass shit while pregnant is one of dumbest things I’ve seen, many people die because of this… such as gets caught by BA in her own damn capital and is getting carted off to god knows where when many people die to save her ass.

12) On a whim she decides to interrogate her captured BA sisters, and again ends up getting stabbed in the belly by the aforementioned Daved Hanlon, and loses some very important Ter’angreal that eventually come back to bite her and many others (such as Birgette getting beheaded).

13) Even though her actions were dumb as hell regarding BA interrogation she learns one vital piece of info, there is some kind of invasion about to happen, but she doesn’t think much on this and eventually loses her entire capital because she naively thinks that her waygate is secure, and doesn’t leave any easy access to her after she leaves to Merrilor, so again her ineptitude is just dumbfounding. (Interlude: after all of this, losing her capital due to her incompetence she is awarded command of all the forces of the light!!!)

14) She keeps running into the thick of battle trying to rally troops, and gets blindsided by Daved Hanlon and is about to get her kids cut out of her after her warder gets beheaded when someone blows Horn of Valere to save her sorry ass.

15) During all her struggles she never decides to actually get her First Prince of the Sword to help her fight a war, Birgette pleads with her that she isn’t a general, she’s a damn Warder. Gawyn should have been called to serve the Crown, but she just puts someone not qualified in charge (Birgette does good, but would have been better served being her Warder), just like her putting Daved in charge of guard when it’s obvious he’s a creep.


Despite all of that, I actually liked her personality towards the end, loved the scenes with her and Mat, even at the end, I also like her sudden love of swearing (“mothers milk in a cup” was a very good one), she delegated well for the most part. Still she was the single most incompetent character in the series, I don’t think anyone else can even come close, not even Ege. Also probably tied for worst (Perrin wandering around Ghealdan is probably the worst, also his searching for Faile was horrible) in the series is much of her consolidation of her throne in Andor, I mean many of those chapters were just annoying, slow moving, and largely pointless, they could have been summed up in a few well placed catch-up pages after she had her throne secured.

[Hazir]

Finally got to finish the book. Surprisingly I liked most of it even though it was a bloody heap of battle accounts. Felt a bit odd about the lonesome cowboy ending of Rand. What's the deal with him not being able to channel and still have his pipe light by thinking of it being lit.

Dentist and work first now. Will get back later.

[Asmodian]

I enjoyed the book because it gave some closure to the series. However objectively I have to say this was the worst book in the series. With so many pages dedicated to battle scenes it was as if the author was trying to get the message that battle was epic through sheer amount of combat and yet the battle to take Caihernan from Shaido feels much more well done. The battles felt more like a computer game description after an overpowered unit was nerfed. Some of it is simply inconsistent with the previous books like the power of channelers, we have battles scenes where one side has some channelers (gona call them mages from now on) and other side does not and still somehow these last formations hold even if they are being lashed with one power by the mages which is anything but realistic based on the rest of the series and any battle with some 40 mages one side and nobody to slice their weaves on the other side is over in seconds.
There were other inconsistencies and some of the plot twists seemed a bit forced such as compulsion of the great captains, in particular Gareth Bryne who is a warder to Siuan and would have his dreams protected if Moraine/Lan is any indication. I think Sanderson did a good job but he has some difficulty writing good endings if the Mystborn series is any evidence.
The book can be much better if about 400 pages of battle scenes was to be cut out and replaced with actual story. I am happy I saw the end of the series and yet some part of me would have wanted it to continues for another 6 volumes wrapping up threads in a non rushed manner, like mordeth thread etc.

PS. Hazir I understood the passage about the pipe to mean one of his 3 girlfriends understood his wish thru the bond and lit the pipe for him as he looks at them right after it happens and they are looking back. That is just my theory thou.

[Parmenio]

I enjoyed the book because it gave some closure to the series. However objectively I have to say this was the worst book in the series. With so many pages dedicated to battle scenes it was as if the author was trying to get the message that battle was epic through sheer amount of combat and yet the battle to take Caihernan from Shaido feels much more well done. The battles felt more like a computer game description after an overpowered unit was nerfed. Some of it is simply inconsistent with the previous books like the power of channelers, we have battles scenes where one side has some channelers (gona call them mages from now on) and other side does not and still somehow these last formations hold even if they are being lashed with one power by the mages which is anything but realistic based on the rest of the series and any battle with some 40 mages one side and nobody to slice their weaves on the other side is over in seconds.
There were other inconsistencies and some of the plot twists seemed a bit forced such as compulsion of the great captains, in particular Gareth Bryne who is a warder to Siuan and would have his dreams protected if Moraine/Lan is any indication. I think Sanderson did a good job but he has some difficulty writing good endings if the Mystborn series is any evidence.

To the bolded line.. Really? Your saying you thought this book was worse that KoD or CoT? I do have some issues with this book, and it's not the best, but to me it is much better than some of the late middle book rubbish.

To the Last Battle... yeah it wasn't my favorite aspect of the series, I thought some of the battle did drag on more than was needed, but isn't that the point at being the Last Battle? I would have been even more disappointed if the battle was like any of the previous, because none of those dragged out much, but this being the Last Battle it would have been rather pathetic to have it done in a few chapters (one being the monstrous 200 pg one...). I agree that it could have been more on point.

By using mages do you mean Dreadlords/Aes Sedai (AS)? If that is your point then I would only ask which battle are you speaking of? Lan had AS and Asha to fight the dreadlords he had to deal with, and then Elayne had only a handful of not battle hardened Kin etc to fight overwhelming number of trollocs, and then we have Gareth's AS killing it till the Sharan's show up with their, for lack of a better word Dreadlords....

Good point on Gareth.. although IIRC even if someone wards their dreams someone could still be able to penetrate the shield, I think it was Lanfear that made that observation, and someone such as Graendal, who is more skilled than any at doing this for thousands of years, seems like she'd be able to cause some havoc.

[Parmenio]

Egwene

So I didn’t hate Ege as much as I used too, she is infuriating with her hypocrisy at times but she started to finally show some promise, even though every time she did something good and decent she did something less so. This book is no exception, I was not all that shocked she was almost caught again in this book, I mean outside of Elayne is there a person who is worse at getting caught? She had to have Gawyn pull her out of the ash and in the process use a Ter’angreal that he knew would kill him (although I'm sure he would have found someway of killing himself anyway... thank the creator)

Let us recap how many times Ege has been snagged:

1) gets caught by the Whitecloaks, I kind of give her a pass, but she was caught and chained up and Lan and Moiraine pull her, and Perrin, out.

2) She gets caught in the very next book by the Seanchan, and it’s up to Nyn and Elayne, and Rand to pull her out, some could give her a pass on this one too becasue she was duped but there comes a point when you should have your head out of your ass.

3) Again in next book she gets nabbed by some Darkfriends that are about to sell her to a Fade when she gets saved by Rhuarc and Avi.

4) Same book she gets caught by the Black Ajah and tossed into dungeon in Tear and has to have Mat and Juilin save her (and here is the start of the worst advice given in the whole book "the best way to find a trap is to spring it" or some such rubbish).

5) As Amyrlin she is prohibited by law from actually putting herself in danger, but because she can’t stand freedom she gets caught by the White Tower.

6) She again uses herself as bait and has to be rescued from being assassinated by Gawyn, all because she wants her Warder to be a lapdog.

7) Her whole army gets caught off guard when Shara shows up to war and she is dead to rights but has Gawyn save her life again, but at the cost of using a Ter’angreal that he knows will eventually kill him.

If you need any reminders about her really bad hypocrisy and worst personality trait I can give a few examples.... How about the way she treated the Dragon Reborn, always with no respect at all because she grew up with him, then she had to bring Nyn to heel because she couldn’t show Ege any respect as Amyrlin; or that she insisted on Nyn and Elayne getting tested as was proper but she shouldn’t have to; that she was upset that Rand had forced Aes Sedai to swear fealty to him after being tortured by them but she as Amyrlin has Aes Sedai do the same as was just and proper; she always criticized inexperienced people to not go to fast and far but she always did so herself; or the granddaddy of them all she the leader of the SAS reprimands them after she is Amyrlin of TAS for being rebels… that was not all inclusive by the way, just things that come to mind.

Figures it’d take Moiraine to let Ege see the light when it came to Rand breaking the seals, why the hell does anyone have to quote freakin’ prophecy to the Amyrlin seat? She knows how to maneuver the sitters in the WT and bring all nations to the Fields of Merrilor but she can’t read the Kareathon Cycle? She’s a damn dreamwalker and see’s a dream of rand breaking the seals and interprets that as “no I can’t let Rand break the seals”…

Her death was something I didn’t see coming, she’s by far the most significant character that died, and I’m fine with that. However I don’t know why an AS has to go into the thick of battle to channel, why not do what Mat eventually found out, have someone pull up a gateway channel really quick then shut it down and move, it’s called stick and move stick and move and it’s what smart people do when you have someone that is stronger than you but you might be the better fighter, eh, they at least found many useful things to do with weaves, which was good.

As Amyrlin with a General at her beck and call she doesn’t actually tell said General that she plans to use sisters in the thick of battle, she has to go to him and actually confront him to use them as anyone with half a brain would think, but does this only after the battle is underway....

The one thing that I found really smart in the last book is that she got a group of sisters to investigate ways to defeat the oath rod, smart good decent thing to do, but why not get same sisters to try to find novel uses for new weaves, like gateways? Or perhaps the best way to fight a battle with sisters going full contact? Like I said she was much better now than earlier, but she was still only partly tolerable (which is about what you'd say for anyone that chose Gawyn as their warder).

I'm sure their is more but that is all I got for now....

[RandBlade]

Finished the book last night. Took me a lot longer than normal to read as I got sick halfway through reading it and didn't want to read while sick.

I enjoyed the finale and thought Sanderson did as well as could be hoped for in finishing off the series. The ending of the series was fitting with the whole Wheel metaphor, I liked the final paragraphs with the wind references and "it is an ending" (which I rather saw coming, I used that as my Facebook status when I bought the book).

Quite a lot of important characters died, that was the only thing I found a bit jarring. On the one hand it made sense with the prophecies and the whole Last Battle etc - on the other it felt more like Sanderson's writings than Jordan. I'm not sure if Jordan would have been able to kill off so many.

I'm just going to post this, and see if anyone has even read the series....

I thought it was rather forced the way they tried to nonchalantly add a couple gay characters in the books, I chalk this up to Sanderson as well. I think some critics complaints were heard so BS decided to add something in, it makes no sense for a 14 book series not to mention anything resembling gay characters then to add two small lines to a couple characters that just showed up. It seems like he wrote the book then said “damn we need to have a couple characters that are gay, lets see they can’t be Darkfriends that would imply that I/RJ thinks gay’s are going to be attracted to the Dark, which would comeback and bite me in the ass, so how about this guy and this guy”… It’s not a huge deal, but I chuckled at it none the less.

We still never saw some out and out Lesbians in the series I don’t think, I mean we know that some women were “pillow friends” and that Sea Folk lady hooked up but she was just doing it for convenience, and so too was the implication of pillow friends. Although I’m sure that many think the Red were all lesbians, which there is some evidence for, but by lesbian to mean a woman who prefers women and wouldn’t accept anything but women (which is the inference of the two gay guys, that they wouldn’t touch a woman), that I don’t think we’ve seen.

Totally disagreed. We debated this on the Book Forum as I recall and I'm very firmly of the opinion that RJ was very explicit about the fact there were gay characters in the books. The references were initially more subtle ("pillow friends" which we all should have known what it meant, but some denied it on the BF) but there were more explicit references too. Sanderson was more explicit in the text about it, but he didn't introduce it as new.

EDIT: Jordan confirmed in a blog post that there were gay and lesbian characters in his books and that homosexuality is just taken "as a matter of course" in his universe

For jofraz, I have gay and Lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course. Remember, Cadsuane is surprised that Shalon and Ailil were so hot to hide that they had been sharing a bed even knowing how prim and proper Cairhienin are on the surface. Well, for many it is just on the surface.

[Asmodian]

1) Yes when I use mages I meant power users I specifically said that in my post.
2) Yes I believer the 2 slowest books were better then this I was disappointed at the time but not by what was written but by the fact the story hadn't advanced much and the next book was a year away.
3) As to battles the one that more or less makes sense until they all merge is Elaynes little war, she has few weak channellers and the shadow seems to have none, although she herself is an exceptionally powerful power user, but ok we can right it off to her being pregnant. Rand participates in her war somewhat but ok lets say he has to conserve his power and hide his presence. Anyway at the end of the battle some 40 ashaman show up and say they can delay but not win the fight. which is somewhat false considering the past books.
Egwene side of the battle she has full power of white tower behind her some few hundred channelers, and for the first few weeks the shadow seems to have none that fight should be over on the first day before sharans ever show up.
Lans little war I am going to give it a maybe since he does have some few channelers to protect his army but the numbers seem to favor heavily the shadow again unlikely this could turn in a protracted war they describe.

Final battle shadow has the numbers and power in preety much every engagement and are able to punish the melee formations almost with impunity this should result in a route but does not.

The use of the power itself has been downgraded somewhat to weight lifting, while yes power and effort have always been part of it but it always struck me more as chess match when jordan described it, perhaps because I played the game as well.

4. As to Gareth, I agree it is somewhat possible that the wards were bypassed. I find it strange however that suan would not notice. I also find it strange that the other captains were not protected as clearly aes sedai are aware of the risk. Finally shadow could do this all along and Graendal is the only one who though to actually do it and saved it up to the last battle? Seriously instead of building up a glorified harem she was busy doing this every officer of note in the armies of light would be a convert.

[Parmenio]

Quite a lot of important characters died, that was the only thing I found a bit jarring. On the one hand it made sense with the prophecies and the whole Last Battle etc - on the other it felt more like Sanderson's writings than Jordan. I'm not sure if Jordan would have been able to kill off so many.

That is a great point, I wonder myself if Jordan could kill off any of his main characters, however I also thought that perhaps he might have been waiting for the Last Battle to do it...

Totally disagreed. We debated this on the Book Forum as I recall and I'm very firmly of the opinion that RJ was very explicit about the fact there were gay characters in the books. The references were initially more subtle ("pillow friends" which we all should have known what it meant, but some denied it on the BF) but there were more explicit references too. Sanderson was more explicit in the text about it, but he didn't introduce it as new.

I never said that gay/lesbian's didn't exist in Randland RB, my point was that RJ was very circumspect and never spelled it out, I recall the whole pillow friends discussions as well as you, and I know that they existed, but my point was that until now it was to borrow a phrase "on the down low".

You seem to acknowledge that BS broke from the RJ mode and actually wrote something very obvious into the books, where RJ was always writing around the subject low key. That was my point, BS spelled out something that I don't think RJ would have, and I know that he didn't really create gay/lesbian characters (even the whole Sea Folker who hooked up with a lady friend, that was subtle as subtle goes) he spelled it out. Even in this context it wasn't from their POV, it was as a total aside. I honestly don't care about the politics on this, anyone who read the series should realize that the way these characters were tossed in the book wasn't normal RJ, especially to the point of pillow friends... We actually had to debate what that meant with people, hardly as explicit as "she prefers women/man"...

That however was a very minor insignificant thing.

[Parmenio]

3) As to battles the one that more or less makes sense until they all merge is Elaynes little war, she has few weak channellers and the shadow seems to have none, although she herself is an exceptionally powerful power user, but ok we can right it off to her being pregnant. Rand participates in her war somewhat but ok lets say he has to conserve his power and hide his presence. Anyway at the end of the battle some 40 ashaman show up and say they can delay but not win the fight. which is somewhat false considering the past books.

I see your point, and I thought the battle wasn't my favorite, but it all depends on numbers, how many trollocs/fades vs theirs. Also her few channelers couldn't really fight, there is something to be said for having some experience killing with the power, the Kin were (now I think idiotically) always to avoid war. Also Elayne isn't Rand, she doesn't have the skills to take out an army of Trollocs, or Ege who was unusually strong in earth for a woman and who was forced by the Seanchan.

I however thought the battle's were not all that great from a tactics standpoint, i don't know why you split your forces, especially because we knew that Shienar was done and so was Kandor, let the Trollocs ravage southward for a time, then take all three armies to smoke the Caemlyn armies (trollocs can't use gateways so they are stuck unless they use the ways), shouldn't take too long to take out them with all 3 armies together, probably see more dreadlords etc, then you turn your attention to one army then the other. Divide and Conquer is the name of the game... But who knows that was just what I was thinking during the whole thing.

Egwene side of the battle she has full power of white tower behind her some few hundred channelers, and for the first few weeks the shadow seems to have none that fight should be over on the first day before sharans ever show up.
Lans little war I am going to give it a maybe since he does have some few channelers to protect his army but the numbers seem to favor heavily the shadow again unlikely this could turn in a protracted war they describe.

Again the frustrating thing is we don't know what numbers everyone had to work with, light and shadow...

The use of the power itself has been downgraded somewhat to weight lifting, while yes power and effort have always been part of it but it always struck me more as chess match when jordan described it, perhaps because I played the game as well.

Odd because I have argued the exact opposite for years, one of my biggest problems with RJ was always that experience and tactics were less important than strength. Case in point who wins between Aginor and Rand at the Eye, who wins between Rand and Ish, how about Nyn defeating Mogh, also Mogh/Nyn in FoH can't quite defeat Rhavin (they mess him up but they know their dead till Rand takes him out), how about Rand and Asmodian... I could go on but you should get the point (exception is Moiraine killing Be'lal when she sucker punched him with Balefire, and her tackling Lanfear through that portal is a sucker punch as well). RJ has a guy who doesn't even know he can channel defeating one of the most powerful Forsaken, a man who has been wielding the power for hundreds of years, against even less than a novice, a guy who doesn't even know what the hell he's doing....

Tactics I don't know if they were introduced at all till Androl showed up in the last book. He's the only guy that I know of who is woefully weak in the power but he can make gateways and then finds novel uses for them to be able to defeat people much stronger than himself... which is why I loved his character and his style of fighting! It's not fanboi, it's smart and tactical...

4. As to Gareth, I agree it is somewhat possible that the wards were bypassed. I find it strange however that suan would not notice. I also find it strange that the other captains were not protected as clearly aes sedai are aware of the risk. Finally shadow could do this all along and Graendal is the only one who though to actually do it and saved it up to the last battle? Seriously instead of building up a glorified harem she was busy doing this every officer of note in the armies of light would be a convert.

Well your supposed to keep your trump card till the end of the game, waiting for TG seems acceptable for me.

[Parmenio]

Perrin pulled his head out in the last book, and he was again one of the best characters, he started as one of my favorite, then after he hooked up with Faile and was uber-reluctant to assume leadership he was beyond horrible, his complete unwillingness to think for himself and the way he and Faile interacted just plain drove me to skim much of Ghealdan and the search for Faile. He started to redeem himself after he started to go after Slayer, and learn the wolfdream, his battle with Slayer were some of best parts of last couple books including MoL, it was about damn time when Perrin learned how to shift into Tel’aran’riod.

I also loved that we finally had Elyas use Tel’aran’riod to communicate with Perrin and give vital information to the waking world, that was very well done.

In MoL I actually wanted more of Perrin, in the epic Last Battle chapter I kept thinking “where the hell is Perrin”, I mean he was recuperating from his injury but he should have come back into things faster than he did, everyone is practically dead from exhaustion but all the Aes Sedai are reluctant to heal his fatigue and let him save the Dragon Reborn’s life in Tel’aran’riod!

Drawbacks are unfortunately the usual, here is a guy who seems to be able to take one of the damn forsaken out, Graendal, but can’t because she’s a woman!!! This stupid ass chivalry is just pathetic in the whole series, it’s a damn miracle that Galad has to point out the idiocy of it all when he speaks simple truth “when a woman can do evil just as much as any man it’s wrong to not kill them if they have to die” (it’s a paraphrase) but it’s a basic truth they have killed countless people throughout this series, Moiraine anyone, because the 3 main characters can’t kill women, this is what gives Fantasy novels the pure Fantasy aspect of things.

So in the whole series there were two important women (random darkfriend Rand killed is worthless to me, and Mat's killing his chick was good but still she was minor character) that were actually killed by men, Semi was killed by Rand only after she collared his ass and he had to reach out to the True Power because she was forcing him to kill his woman, and the other was Perrin at the end of this book again when she was about to destroy Rand and give final victory to the Dark One.

Due to Perrin’s unwillingness to kill Graendal, she ends up causing havoc on Rand’s defenses in Thakan’dar, not to mention she’s the one that’s been going around compulsing the 4 great Captains of the world, which causes many of the Light to drop unnecessarily. Finally at the end of the book Perrin breaks Lanfear’s neck when she’s about to seize Rand and fuck the world over. At this point I honestly started laughing, after all that shit these dumbass characters let women get away with it took one guy to realize that the whole damned world came down to killing a woman… incredibly stupid character arc in that, just childish.

Unfortunately Faile didn’t die, she wasn’t as bad here as she has been in other books, I guess you can say after Perrin grew a pair of balls with her that she stopped being as annoying to me.

[Hazir]

Hmm.. you are right if Perrin had offed Graendal he'd have taken her out of the equation for good. Not a bad thing considering that the LB had already started, and that she was actively working towards the victory of the armies of the Dark Lord. It seems totally illogical to not want to kill a woman and accept that that means thousands upon thousands other people, including many women, will die.

[RandBlade]

Might be mistaken but I though Grandael escaped rather than was actively let go. He did try and get her but she is very powerful in tel'aran'rhiod

[Parmenio]

Might be mistaken but I though Grandael escaped rather than was actively let go. He did try and get her but she is very powerful in tel'aran'rhiod

My impression of his interaction with her at first was she was trying to take care of him but he was just dancing around, not really trying to do anything to really hurt her... and to me it seemed like every other idiotic guy who will let himself practically die before he kills a woman. Also his finally killing Lanfear as he did seemed to me the one time he finally realized how dumb all their rules were.

It's the single most frustrating trait in the whole series for me, takes a very admirable quality, don't beat on women, and then turns it into pure rubbish.


On another note did anyone find the whole Faile thing rather strange? I mean you have people in your army that can actually travel directly into the WT so why don't we give some woman and some common soldiers the job of recovering and bringing the HoV to Mat instead of say an AS... Even Ege could have done this, take 5 minutes to make a gateway into the WT and then directly back to Mat.... I thought that whole side thing was too complicated for what it should have been, Rube Goldberg would be proud.

[RandBlade]

I think the death that most shocked me was Bela's. Back in the Book Forum there was this whole Bela is the Creator meme, I believe when I first joined the forum and created this nickname Bela was one of very few characters to have appeared in every single book (not even Mat Cauthon had by that stage), though I think she was omitted from a few later ones.

[Parmenio]

I think the death that most shocked me was Bela's. Back in the Book Forum there was this whole Bela is the Creator meme, I believe when I first joined the forum and created this nickname Bela was one of very few characters to have appeared in every single book (not even Mat Cauthon had by that stage), though I think she was omitted from a few later ones.

Good call, now that you mention it that was probably the most shocking, I kept finding it odd that Bela was still getting a workout in this book and was surprised that BS offed her... I actually had to read that over again not thinking that I read it properly.

[Hazir]

Good call, now that you mention it that was probably the most shocking, I kept finding it odd that Bela was still getting a workout in this book and was surprised that BS offed her... I actually had to read that over again not thinking that I read it properly.

I was surprised about Bela popping up at the LB, but not so shocked that she died. It was a nice lead up to Olver's enhanced role.

[Lewkowski]

So I finally got around to reading it. E-book was only 7 bucks so I decided to do it (even though I'm still mad at RJ's idiotic wife).

Glad I did. Some parts were a bit unexpected but its nice to see the series end.

Gawyn dying uselessly was pretty funny. Galad > Gawyn should of been obvious but apparently there were stupid idiots on other forums claiming Gawyn was better.

Lan in the sword fight was great. Honestly thought he should of stayed dead though.

Mat was epic as usual. There was less of Faile which is always good.

I'm not square on the whole Pattern/WoT free will debate that Rand had with the DO. Exactly how much free will is there in the freaken pattern that outright forces circumstances? I thought the Wise One's little plot to change the future by changing the name of a child was pretty funny.

Really with Hawking would of smacked Tuon down. For awhile I liked the character but now she's just annoying.