View Poll Results: Do you believe in Satan (or some non-Abrahamic equivalent)?

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  • I believe Satan is real

    2 16.67%
  • I believe Satan might be real

    2 16.67%
  • I don't believe Satan is real

    8 66.67%
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Thread: Tools for Satan

  1. #1

    Default Tools for Satan

    So . . . . read the article down there and, ah, go ahead and vote in the poll. Would love to hear from the, um, Satan believers in the community here -- you know, what you actually believe about the Evil One, how that informs your choices and so on....

    You know, sometimes, after you've stayed away from church and religion talk for a while and you read a lot of rational, secular stuff, you can be surprised suddenly by the lunacy Out There, which is fine, usually, unless, you know, the lunatic is a Supreme Court Justice admitting he believes in supernatural fairy-tale bad guys....


    The Devil and Antonin Scalia


    by Candida Moss Oct 8, 2013 5:45 AM EDT
    Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia believes in the devil. Do you? Religion professor Candida Moss on why the justice’s admission is common—and what the Bible says about devilry.






    In an interview in New York Magazine, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia declared that he believes the Devil is a “real person.” Scalia went on to say—in a statement reminiscent of Baudelaire and The Usual Suspects—that the Devil is actively engaged in “getting people not to believe in him or in God. He’s much more successful that way.”


    Getty
    Many, like Scalia’s interviewer, were surprised by his boldness. But the feisty and controversial Justice is on sure footing when he says that this is “standard Catholic doctrine.” In August, Minneapolis and St. Paul Archbishop John Nienstedt stated that gay marriage, condoms, and pornography are the work of the “Father of Lies.” Even Liberal favorite Pope Francis has spoken about the Devil and is rumored to have performed a public exorcism back in May.


    It’s not only Catholics who believe in Satan. Scalia is correct when he says that most people agree with him. A 2007 Gallup Poll revealed that 70% of Americans believe in the Devil and a separate 2013 YouGov survey (PDF) suggests that more Protestants than Catholics are devil-fearers. The influence of the Devil is pervasive. Some American evangelicals export teen exorcists to the UK to fight the Harry Potter induced demonic infestation there. And Katy Perry reminisced in an interview that Dirt Devil vacuum cleaners were not permitted in her evangelical household because of their demonic connotations.


    Between sponsoring state legislatures, co-authoring books with J. K. Rowling, and investing in Trojan, Satan has been busy. But who is the Devil and what do Christians really believe about him?


    Unlike in the movies, the Biblical Devil is a touch anemic. He’s a bit player in the Old Testament; readers of Genesis will find neither apples nor Satan in the Garden of Eden. The smart-talking serpent wasn’t identified as the Devil until centuries later. Satan’s first cameo, in the book of Job, casts him as a trickster-cum-lawyer who is close enough to God to enter into a wager about the piety of Job.


    Demons are more regular guest stars in the New Testament. While ancient Greeks and Romans thought daemons were ambiguous supernatural entities, those that appear in the Gospels are antagonistic. They possess the bodies of hapless ancient Mediterraneans, align against Jesus and his followers, send a herd of pork chops off a cliff, and steel themselves for a showdown at the end of the world.


    None of that seems to go on today. As Scalia puts it, the Devil has gotten “wilier.” In an effort to stay one step ahead, priests gather every year at the Ateneo Pontifical Institute in Rome to swap stories and to learn the most up-to-date strategies in spiritual warfare. (Full disclosure: I attended the 2012 course.) Enrollment in these classes grows larger each year and Catholic dioceses in the US report a marked increase in requests for exorcism from their congregants.


    In the past two millennia individuals accused of being either the Antichrist or possessed by a demon include Martin Luther, Ronald Reagan, Britney Spears, Barack Obama, and Jesus of Nazareth.




    The course teaches that Devilish influence in the world is of two basic types. The first is standard stuff. Tempted by the second helping of cake, the only-marginally-reduced Jimmy Choos, or the bouncy intern who really “gets” you? That’s Satan. But the second type, “extraordinary” machinations of the devil, plunge us deeply into the supernatural.


    On a sliding scale of bad to worse, common to rare, the Devil can possess places and objects, cause illness, or create “vexations” in a person’s life. A person can be “obsessed,” meaning he or she is preoccupied with feelings of worthlessness or thoughts of suicide. Worst of all, a person can be possessed by a demon or the Devil himself, Exorcist style.


    Very few people strike Faustian deals with the Devil. After all, trading sixty years of power and fame for an eternity in hell is just poor investing. How, then, does a person let the Devil into their life? According to the exorcists, risky behaviors include: general temptation, drug use, listening to heavy metal, reading books about teen wizards, watching pornography, consulting horoscopes, and practicing yoga.


    The trouble is you might not know you’re possessed. One exorcist relayed an anecdote about exorcising a 40—year-old man. Unbeknownst to him, the patient had been possessed since he was in the womb. The only symptoms of his condition were his doubts about God and an obsession with ‘self-gratification.’


    This could be more widespread than previously recognized.


    It all seems like superstition, but it’s worth noting that almost all teachings about the Devil are Biblically based. The idea that God fights Satan is both ancient and internally consistent. If the world is the playing field for the contest between good and evil, then it stands to reason that any perspective, viewpoint, or consumer product not from God fights for the other side. There’s no fluffy “room for dialogue” here, either. Satan isn’t a mixed-up teen yearning to be understood. Once you’re inside it the system makes sense. Eat angel food cake, not Devil Dogs.


    When it comes to people, though, discerning demonic influence is more difficult. According to contemporary Roman Catholic theory, the only sure signs of possession are superhuman strength, the ability to speak unlearned languages, flying, and knowledge of people’s thoughts and secrets (skills that in other contexts sound pretty fantastic).


    But most do not manifest these superpowers in their everyday lives. And while worldly success sometimes has a whiff of demonic patronage, identification is dangerous. As David Frankfurter’s Evil Incarnate shows, the accusation of demonic conspiracy is one of the most potent forms of Christian slander. Just ask midwives, medieval Jews, or inhabitants of Salem, Mass.


    Scalia wisely refrained from identifying any group as participants in the Devil’s work. Those who would try should note that in the past two millennia individuals accused of being either the Antichrist or possessed by a demon include Martin Luther, Ronald Reagan, Britney Spears, Barack Obama, and Jesus of Nazareth. Fighting the good fight runs some risk of embarrassment.




    Like The Daily Beast on Facebook and follow us on Twitter for updates all day long.
    Candida Moss is professor of New Testament and early Christianity at the University of Notre Dame and the author of The Myth of Persecution. Follow her on Twitter @candidamoss.


    For inquiries, please contact The Daily Beast at editorial@thedailybeast.com.
    Last edited by EyeKhan; 10-08-2013 at 07:10 PM.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  2. #2
    So much for the separation of church and state, huh. (I only read the first page of the interview.)

    I do believe "Evil" exists...but as a manifestation of human flaws.

  3. #3
    In my 11 years of Catholic education, at least in the high-school portion, my religion class teachers, which included lay people and Brothers of the Holy Cross, taught that Satan was not a literal being, that Hell was not a fire and brimstone place. And temptation was merely the tickling of Original Sin born into all of us -- for whatever reason (they taught the creation story was metaphorical mythology) -- and while every bit as seductive and dangerous as if there was a Satan, there wasn't one guiding it all.

    Apparently they didn't have the authority to teach these things.

    The problem is that having an omniscient/ omnipotent, all-loving and forgiving God on the one hand and a very powerful trickster Satan capable of defying that God and drawing you into eternal damnation on the other is damn tough to reconcile with any kind of sense.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  4. #4
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    So much for the separation of church and state, huh. (I only read the first page of the interview.)

    I do believe "Evil" exists...but as a manifestation of human flaws.
    Separation of church and state does not mean people working for the state can't go to church.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    So much for the separation of church and state, huh. (I only read the first page of the interview.)

    I do believe "Evil" exists...but as a manifestation of human flaws.
    Personal religious beliefs have nothing to do with the separation of church and state, GGT.

  6. #6
    You just hate anyone who doesn't use the eye-burning themes, don't you EyeKhan?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    You just hate anyone who doesn't use the eye-burning themes, don't you EyeKhan?
    I don't understand.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  8. #8
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    A friend of mine actually attended a seminar on Devils during her studies of history at University (completely serious, though, the seminar being a mix about German literature, historical topics and the role of religion).

    And, good lord, there are a lot of devils. Most favourite of mine: The trouser devil.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I don't understand.
    Your quotes are unreadable on a number of themes due to text colour - if you select the text and click the 'clear formatting' button before posting, it's readable for everyone
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    A friend of mine actually attended a seminar on Devils during her studies of history at University (completely serious, though, the seminar being a mix about German literature, historical topics and the role of religion).

    And, good lord, there are a lot of devils. Most favourite of mine: The trouser devil.
    Is that an actual devil or a nickname for something?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    You just hate anyone who doesn't use the eye-burning themes, don't you EyeKhan?

    It made it easy to read because the only thing I could see on his post were the two pictures. Hooray for custom fonts which I can't see with my theme!!!!! YAY!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's not okay to shoot an innocent bank clerk but shooting a felon to death is commendable and do you should receive a reward rather than a punishment

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Your quotes are unreadable on a number of themes due to text colour - if you select the text and click the 'clear formatting' button before posting, it's readable for everyone

    Is that an actual devil or a nickname for something?
    Quote Originally Posted by ImAnOgre View Post
    It made it easy to read because the only thing I could see on his post were the two pictures. Hooray for custom fonts which I can't see with my theme!!!!! YAY!
    I replaced with plain text. Sorry.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    A friend of mine actually attended a seminar on Devils during her studies of history at University (completely serious, though, the seminar being a mix about German literature, historical topics and the role of religion).

    And, good lord, there are a lot of devils. Most favourite of mine: The trouser devil.
    And here mine is Maxwell's Demon.

  13. #13
    Nothing wrong with a SCOTUS judge believing in a Devil (so long as he doesn't act on that belief in setting the law).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #14
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Is that an actual devil or a nickname for something?
    It is an actual devil. As I said, there are a lot of devils. They had devils for everything, up to and including the kitchen sink.

    There was, for example, the Theatrum Diabolorum by Feyerabend who listed 33 different devils or the Démonomanie by Bodin who had several more
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Nothing wrong with a SCOTUS judge believing in a Devil (so long as he doesn't act on that belief in setting the law).
    And even then its only *equally* as bad as a judge who uses a secular morality belief to determine a decision as opposed to the law of the land.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Nothing wrong with a SCOTUS judge believing in a Devil (so long as he doesn't act on that belief in setting the law).
    Yes, that's what I meant. Scalia has been known to talk about legal rulings in religious terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    And even then its only *equally* as bad as a judge who uses a secular morality belief to determine a decision as opposed to the law of the land.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Yes, that's what I meant. Scalia has been known to talk about legal rulings in religious terms.
    Source?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Nothing wrong with a SCOTUS judge believing in a Devil (so long as he doesn't act on that belief in setting the law).
    You mean judges are allowed to rule out of their ideological convictions but not religious ones? I don't recall anything in the Constitution to that effect.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Source?
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffr...b_3105389.html

    That was just the first link in my internet search. Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this thread into a debate about Founding Fathers, their religious beliefs, the Constitution, or SCOTUS appointees. Choobs posed a good question for Satan believers, but I got caught up in his framing.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffr...b_3105389.html

    That was just the first link in my internet search. Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this thread into a debate about Founding Fathers, their religious beliefs, the Constitution, or SCOTUS appointees. Choobs posed a good question for Satan believers, but I got caught up in his framing.
    He didn't mention religion once in that article.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You mean judges are allowed to rule out of their ideological convictions but not religious ones? I don't recall anything in the Constitution to that effect.
    Separation of church and state, first amendment. Though even then I don't think SCOTUS judges should rule based on their ideological convictions either, that is the job of elected politicians. Judges should rule based on the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Separation of church and state, first amendment. Though even then I don't think SCOTUS judges should rule based on their ideological convictions either, that is the job of elected politicians. Judges should rule based on the law.
    All that means is one can't explicitly invoke religious doctrine while making rulings.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #23
    Moral belief is moral belief. Just because some people's morals are derived from theistic belief doesn't mean it deserves special sanction.

  24. #24
    I should also note that forbidding judges from ruling on the basis of one religious belief (Christianity) while allowing them to rule on the basis of another (atheism) would be unconstitutional...

    Separation of state and church means that the state can't favor a specific religion, not that religion in general should be banned from the public sphere.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I should also note that forbidding judges from ruling on the basis of one religious belief (Christianity) while allowing them to rule on the basis of another (atheism) would be unconstitutional...

    Separation of state and church means that the state can't favor a specific religion, not that religion in general should be banned from the public sphere.
    Except that atheism isn't a religious belief and as such it impossible to rule based on atheism. Atheism is not a belief, it is the lack of belief.

    EDIT: I assume this post (and thus my reply) belonged in the Satan thread and not the debt ceiling one so I've moved them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Except that atheism isn't a religious belief and as such it impossible to rule based on atheism. Atheism is not a belief, it is the lack of belief.

    EDIT: I assume this post (and thus my reply) belonged in the Satan thread and not the debt ceiling one so I've moved them.
    My reaction to that story was more visceral than you and Loki's. All Constitutional issues aside, with his education and thoughtful, careful intelligence, he ought to have more sophisticated religious beliefs. Faith in God, belief in the value of religious institutions, etc does not (necessarily) conflict with intelligence, maturity, sophistication, etc. But belief in Satan as an entity that actively manipulates human society as part of some grand cosmic conflict between good and evil...? Yeah, that really is moronic, especially when you're smart enough and educated enough to know better.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  27. #27
    I see the belief in Satan as no more moronic than the belief in God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    My reaction to that story was more visceral than you and Loki's. All Constitutional issues aside, with his education and thoughtful, careful intelligence, he ought to have more sophisticated religious beliefs. Faith in God, belief in the value of religious institutions, etc does not (necessarily) conflict with intelligence, maturity, sophistication, etc. But belief in Satan as an entity that actively manipulates human society as part of some grand cosmic conflict between good and evil...? Yeah, that really is moronic, especially when you're smart enough and educated enough to know better.
    Why is it worse than believing in God? The article mentions the devil is part of Catholic dogma, so it's not really weird that a believer also believes in the devil.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  29. #29
    I think it may be easier to square a non-interfering God with reality than to do the same with a meddling evil Prince of Darkness.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  30. #30
    Supposedly it's a meddling God too. God meddles far more throughout the Bible than the Devil does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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