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Thread: I Can Tolerate Anything Except The Outgroup

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    Default I Can Tolerate Anything Except The Outgroup

    In Chesterton’s The Secret of Father Brown, a beloved nobleman who murdered his good-for-nothing brother in a duel thirty years ago returns to his hometown wracked by guilt. All the townspeople want to forgive him immediately, and they mock the titular priest for only being willing to give a measured forgiveness conditional on penance and self-reflection. They lecture the priest on the virtues of charity and compassion.

    Later, it comes out that the beloved nobleman did not in fact kill his good-for-nothing brother. The good-for-nothing brother killed the beloved nobleman (and stole his identity). Now the townspeople want to see him lynched or burned alive, and it is only the priest who – consistently – offers a measured forgiveness conditional on penance and self-reflection.

    The priest tells them:

    It seems to me that you only pardon the sins that you don’t really think sinful. You only forgive criminals when they commit what you don’t regard as crimes, but rather as conventions. You forgive a conventional duel just as you forgive a conventional divorce. You forgive because there isn’t anything to be forgiven.

    He further notes that this is why the townspeople can self-righteously consider themselves more compassionate and forgiving than he is. Actual forgiveness, the kind the priest needs to cultivate to forgive evildoers, is really really hard. The fake forgiveness the townspeople use to forgive the people they like is really easy, so they get to boast not only of their forgiving nature, but of how much nicer they are than those mean old priests who find forgiveness difficult and want penance along with it.

    After some thought I agree with Chesterton’s point. There are a lot of people who say “I forgive you” when they mean “No harm done”, and a lot of people who say “That was unforgiveable” when they mean “That was genuinely really bad”. Whether or not forgiveness is right is a complicated topic I do not want to get in here. But since forgiveness is generally considered a virtue, and one that many want credit for having, I think it’s fair to say you only earn the right to call yourself ‘forgiving’ if you forgive things that genuinely hurt you.

    To borrow Chesterton’s example, if you think divorce is a-ok, then you don’t get to “forgive” people their divorces, you merely ignore them. Someone who thinks divorce is abhorrent can “forgive” divorce. You can forgive theft, or murder, or tax evasion, or something you find abhorrent.

    I mean, from a utilitarian point of view, you are still doing the correct action of not giving people grief because they’re a divorcee. You can have all the Utility Points you want. All I’m saying is that if you “forgive” something you don’t care about, you don’t earn any Virtue Points.

    (by way of illustration: a billionaire who gives $100 to charity gets as many Utility Points as an impoverished pensioner who donates the same amount, but the latter gets a lot more Virtue Points)

    Tolerance is definitely considered a virtue, but it suffers the same sort of dimished expectations forgiveness does.

    The Emperor summons before him Bodhidharma and asks: “Master, I have been tolerant of innumerable gays, lesbians, bisexuals, asexuals, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, transgender people, and Jews. How many Tolerance Points have I earned for my meritorious deeds?”

    Bodhidharma answers: “None at all”.

    The Emperor, somewhat put out, demands to know why not.

    Bodhidharma asks: “Well, what do you think of gay people?”

    The Emperor answers: “What do you think I am, some kind of homophobic bigot? Of course I have nothing against gay people!”

    And Bodhidharma answers: “Thus do you gain no merit by tolerating them!”

    II.

    If I had to define “tolerance” it would be something like “respect and kindness toward members of an outgroup”.

    And today we have an almost unprecedented situation.

    We have a lot of people – like the Emperor – boasting of being able to tolerate everyone from every outgroup they can imagine, loving the outgroup, writing long paeans to how great the outgroup is, staying up at night fretting that somebody else might not like the outgroup enough.

    And we have those same people absolutely ripping into their in-groups – straight, white, male, hetero, cis, American, whatever – talking day in and day out to anyone who will listen about how terrible their in-group is, how it is responsible for all evils, how something needs to be done about it, how they’re ashamed to be associated with it at all.

    This is really surprising. It’s a total reversal of everything we know about human psychology up to this point. No one did any genetic engineering. No one passed out weird glowing pills in the public schools. And yet suddenly we get an entire group of people who conspicuous love their outgroups, the outer the better, and gain status by talking about how terrible their own groups are.

    What is going on here?

    III.

    Let’s start by asking what exactly an outgroup is.

    There’s a very boring sense in which, assuming the Emperor’s straight, gays are part of his “outgroup” ie a group that he is not a member of. But if the Emperor has curly hair, are straight-haired people part of his outgroup? If the Emperor’s name starts with the letter ‘A’, are people whose names start with the letter ‘B’ part of his outgroup?

    Nah. I would differentiate between multiple different meanings of outgroup, where one is “a group you are not a part of” and the other is…something stronger.

    I want to avoid a very easy trap, which is saying that outgroups are about how different you are, or how hostile you are. I don’t think that’s quite right.

    Compare the Nazis to the German Jews and to the Japanese. The Nazis were very similar to the German Jews: they looked the same, spoke the same language, came from a similar culture. The Nazis were totally different from the Japanese: different race, different language, vast cultural gap. But although one could imagine certain situations in which the Nazis treated the Japanese as an outgroup, in practice they got along pretty well. Heck, the Nazis were actually moderately friendly with the Chinese, even when they were technically at war. Meanwhile, the conflict between the Nazis and the German Jews – some of whom didn’t even realize they were anything other than German until they checked their grandparents’ birth certificate – is the stuff of history and nightmares. Any theory of outgroupishness that naively assumes the Nazis’ natural outgroup is Japanese or Chinese people will be totally inadequate.

    And this isn’t a weird exception. Freud spoke of the narcissism of small differences, saying that “it is precisely communities with adjoining territories, and related to each other in other ways as well, who are engaged in constant feuds and ridiculing each other”. Nazis and German Jews. Northern Irish Protestants and Northern Irish Catholics. Hutus and Tutsis. South African whites and South African blacks. Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs. Anyone in the former Yugoslavia and anyone else in the former Yugoslavia.

    So what makes an outgroup? Proximity plus small differences. If you want to know who someone in former Yugoslavia hates, don’t look at the Indonesians or the Zulus or the Tibetans or anyone else distant and exotic. Find the Yugoslavian ethnicity that lives closely intermingled with them and is most conspicuously similar to them, and chances are you’ll find the one who they have eight hundred years of seething hatred toward.

    What makes an unexpected in-group? The answer with Germans and Japanese is obvious – a strategic alliance. In fact, the World Wars forged a lot of unexpected temporary pseudo-friendships. A recent article from War Nerd points out that the British, after spending centuries subjugating and despising the Irish and Sikhs, suddenly needed Irish and Sikh soldiers for World Wars I and II respectively. “Crush them beneath our boots” quickly changed to fawning songs about how “there never was a coward where the shamrock grows” and endless paeans to Sikh military prowess.

    Sure, scratch the paeans even a little bit and you find condescension as strong as ever. But eight hundred years of the British committing genocide against the Irish and considering them literally subhuman turned into smiles and songs about shamrocks once the Irish started looking like useful cannon fodder for a larger fight. And the Sikhs, dark-skinned people with turbans and beards who pretty much exemplify the European stereotype of “scary foreigner”, were lauded by everyone from the news media all the way up to Winston Churchill.

    In other words, outgroups may be the people who look exactly like you, and scary foreigner types can become the in-group on a moment’s notice when it seems convenient.

    IV.

    There are certain theories of dark matter where it barely interacts with the regular world at all, such that we could have a dark matter planet exactly co-incident with Earth and never know. Maybe dark matter people are walking all around us and through us, maybe my house is in the Times Square of a great dark matter city, maybe a few meters away from me a dark matter blogger is writing on his dark matter computer about how weird it would be if there was a light matter person he couldn’t see right next to him.

    This is sort of how I feel about conservatives.

    I don’t mean the sort of light-matter conservatives who go around complaining about Big Government and occasionally voting for Romney. I see those guys all the time. What I mean is – well, take creationists. According to Gallup polls, about 46% of Americans are creationists. Not just in the sense of believing God helped guide evolution. I mean they think evolution is a vile atheist lie and God created humans exactly as they exist right now. That’s half the country.

    And I don’t have a single one of those people in my social circle. It’s not because I’m deliberately avoiding them; I’m pretty live-and-let-live politically, I wouldn’t ostracize someone just for some weird beliefs. And yet, even though I probably know about a hundred fifty people, I am pretty confident that not one of them is creationist. Odds of this happening by chance? 1/2^150 = 1/10^45 = approximately the chance of picking a particular atom if you are randomly selecting among all the atoms on Earth.

    About forty percent of Americans want to ban gay marriage. I think if I really stretch it, maybe ten of my top hundred fifty friends might fall into this group. This is less astronomically unlikely; the odds are a mere one to one hundred quintillion against.

    People like to talk about social bubbles, but that doesn’t even begin to cover one hundred quintillion. The only metaphor that seems really appropriate is the bizarre dark matter world.

    I live in a Republican congressional district in a state with a Republican governor. The conservatives are definitely out there. They drive on the same roads as I do, live in the same neighborhoods. But they might as well be made of dark matter. I never meet them.

    To be fair, I spend a lot of my time inside on my computer. I’m browsing sites like Reddit.

    Recently, there was a thread on Reddit asking – Redditors Against Gay Marriage, What Is Your Best Supporting Argument? A Reddit user who didn’t understand how anybody could be against gay marriage honestly wanted to know how other people who were against it justified their position. He figured he might as well ask one of the largest sites on the Internet, with an estimated user base in the tens of millions.

    It soon became clear that nobody there was actually against gay marriage.

    There were a bunch of posts saying “I of course support gay marriage but here are some reasons some other people might be against it,” a bunch of others saying “my argument against gay marriage is the government shouldn’t be involved in the marriage business at all”, and several more saying “why would you even ask this question, there’s no possible good argument and you’re wasting your time”. About halfway through the thread someone started saying homosexuality was unnatural and I thought they were going to be the first one to actually answer the question, but at the end they added “But it’s not my place to decide what is or isn’t natural, I’m still pro-gay marriage.”

    In a thread with 10,401 comments, a thread specifically asking for people against gay marriage, I was eventually able to find two people who came out and opposed it, way near the bottom. Their posts started with “I know I’m going to be downvoted to hell for this…”

    But I’m not only on Reddit. I also hang out on LW.

    On last year’s survey, I found that of American LWers who identify with one of the two major political parties, 80% are Democrat and 20% Republican, which actually sounds pretty balanced compared to some of these other examples.

    But it doesn’t last. Pretty much all of those “Republicans” are libertarians who consider the GOP the lesser of two evils. When allowed to choose “libertarian” as an alternative, only 4% of visitors continued to identify as conservative. But that’s still…some. Right?

    When I broke the numbers down further, 3 percentage points of those are neoreactionaries, a bizarre local sect that wants to be ruled by a king. Only one percent of LWers were normal everyday God-‘n-guns-but-not-George-III conservatives of the type that seem to make up about half of the United States.

    It gets worse. My formative years were spent at a university which, if it was similar to other elite universities, had a faculty and a student body that skewed about 90-10 liberal to conservative – and we can bet that, like LW, even those few token conservatives are Mitt Romney types rather than God-n’-guns types. I get my news from vox.com, an Official Liberal Approved Site. Even when I go out to eat, it turns out my favorite restaurant, California Pizza Kitchen, is the most liberal restaurant in the United States.

    I inhabit the same geographical area as scores and scores of conservatives. But without meaning to, I have created an outrageously strong bubble, a 10^45 bubble. Conservatives are all around me, yet I am about as likely to have a serious encounter with one as I am a Tibetan lama.

    (Less likely, actually. One time a Tibetan lama came to my college and gave a really nice presentation, but if a conservative tried that, people would protest and it would be canceled.)

    V.

    One day I realized that entirely by accident I was fulfilling all the Jewish stereotypes.

    I’m nerdy, over-educated, good with words, good with money, weird sense of humor, don’t get outside much, I like deli sandwiches. And I’m a psychiatrist, which is about the most stereotypically Jewish profession short of maybe stand-up comedian or rabbi.

    I’m not very religious. And I don’t go to synagogue. But that’s stereotypically Jewish too!

    I bring this up because it would be a mistake to think “Well, a Jewish person is by definition someone who is born of a Jewish mother. Or I guess it sort of also means someone who follows the Mosaic Law and goes to synagogue. But I don’t care about Scott’s mother, and I know he doesn’t go to synagogue, so I can’t gain any useful information from knowing Scott is Jewish.”

    The defining factors of Judaism – Torah-reading, synagogue-following, mother-having – are the tip of a giant iceberg. Jews sometimes identify as a “tribe”, and even if you don’t attend synagogue, you’re still a member of that tribe and people can still (in a statistical way) infer things about you by knowing your Jewish identity – like how likely they are to be psychiatrists.

    The last section raised a question – if people rarely select their friends and associates and customers explicitly for politics, how do we end up with such intense political segregation?

    Well, in the same way “going to synagogue” is merely the iceberg-tip of a Jewish tribe with many distinguishing characteristics, so “voting Republican” or “identifying as conservative” or “believing in creationism” is the iceberg-tip of a conservative tribe with many distinguishing characteristics.

    A disproportionate number of my friends are Jewish, because I meet them at psychiatry conferences or something – we self-segregate not based on explicit religion but on implicit tribal characteristics. So in the same way, political tribes self-segregate to an impressive extent – a 1/10^45 extent, I will never tire of hammering in – based on their implicit tribal characteristics.

    The people who are actually into this sort of thing sketch out a bunch of speculative tribes and subtribes, but to make it easier, let me stick with two and a half.
    The Red Tribe is most classically typified by conservative political beliefs, strong evangelical religious beliefs, creationism, opposing gay marriage, owning guns, eating steak, drinking Coca-Cola, driving SUVs, watching lots of TV, enjoying American football, getting conspicuously upset about terrorists and commies, marrying early, divorcing early, shouting “USA IS NUMBER ONE!!!”, and listening to country music.

    The Blue Tribe is most classically typified by liberal political beliefs, vague agnosticism, supporting gay rights, thinking guns are barbaric, eating arugula, drinking fancy bottled water, driving Priuses, reading lots of books, being highly educated, mocking American football, feeling vaguely like they should like soccer but never really being able to get into it, getting conspicuously upset about sexists and bigots, marrying later, constantly pointing out how much more civilized European countries are than America, and listening to “everything except country”.

    (There is a partly-formed attempt to spin off a Grey Tribe typified by libertarian political beliefs, Dawkins-style atheism, vague annoyance that the question of gay rights even comes up, eating paleo, drinking Soylent, calling in rides on Uber, reading lots of blogs, calling American football “sportsball”, getting conspicuously upset about the War on Drugs and the NSA, and listening to filk – but for our current purposes this is a distraction and they can safely be considered part of the Blue Tribe most of the time)

    I think these “tribes” will turn out to be even stronger categories than politics. Harvard might skew 80-20 in terms of Democrats vs. Republicans, 90-10 in terms of liberals vs. conservatives, but maybe 99-1 in terms of Blues vs. Reds.

    It’s the many, many differences between these tribes that explain the strength of the filter bubble – which have I mentioned segregates people at a strength of 1/10^45? Even in something as seemingly politically uncharged as going to California Pizza Kitchen or Sushi House for dinner, I’m restricting myself to the set of people who like cute artisanal pizzas or sophsticated foreign foods, which are classically Blue Tribe characteristics.

    Are these tribes based on geography? Are they based on race, ethnic origin, religion, IQ, what TV channels you watched as a kid? I don’t know.

    Some of it is certainly genetic – estimates of the genetic contribution to political association range from 0.4 to 0.6. Heritability of one’s attitudes toward gay rights range from 0.3 to 0.5, which hilariously is a little more heritable than homosexuality itself.

    (for an interesting attempt to break these down into more rigorous concepts like “traditionalism”, “authoritarianism”, and “in-group favoritism” and find the genetic loading for each see here. For an attempt to trace the specific genes involved, which mostly turn out to be NMDA receptors, see here)

    But I don’t think it’s just genetics. There’s something else going on too. The word “class” seems like the closest analogue, but only if you use it in the sophisticated Paul Fussell Guide Through the American Status System way instead of the boring “another word for how much money you make” way.

    For now we can just accept them as a brute fact – as multiple coexisting societies that might as well be made of dark matter for all of the interaction they have with one another – and move on.

    VI.

    The worst reaction I’ve ever gotten to a blog post was when I wrote about the death of Osama bin Laden. I’ve written all sorts of stuff about race and gender and politics and whatever, but that was the worst.

    I didn’t come out and say I was happy he was dead. But some people interpreted it that way, and there followed a bunch of comments and emails and Facebook messages about how could I possibly be happy about the death of another human being, even if he was a bad person? Everyone, even Osama, is a human being, and we should never rejoice in the death of a fellow man. One commenter came out and said:

    I’m surprised at your reaction. As far as people I casually stalk on the internet (ie, LJ and Facebook), you are the first out of the “intelligent, reasoned and thoughtful” group to be uncomplicatedly happy about this development and not to be, say, disgusted at the reactions of the other 90% or so.

    This commenter was right. Of the “intelligent, reasoned, and thoughtful” people I knew, the overwhelming emotion was conspicuous disgust that other people could be happy about his death. I hastily backtracked and said I wasn’t happy per se, just surprised and relieved that all of this was finally behind us.

    And I genuinely believed that day that I had found some unexpected good in people – that everyone I knew was so humane and compassionate that they were unable to rejoice even in the death of someone who hated them and everything they stood for.

    Then a few years later, Margaret Thatcher died. And on my Facebook wall – made of these same “intelligent, reasoned, and thoughtful” people – the most common response was to quote some portion of the song “Ding Dong, The Witch Is Dead”. Another popular response was to link the videos of British people spontaneously throwing parties in the street, with comments like “I wish I was there so I could join in”. From this exact same group of people, not a single expression of disgust or a “c’mon, guys, we’re all human beings here.”

    I gently pointed this out at the time, and mostly got a bunch of “yeah, so what?”, combined with links to an article claiming that “the demand for respectful silence in the wake of a public figure’s death is not just misguided but dangerous”.

    And that was when something clicked for me.

    You can talk all you want about Islamophobia, but my friend’s “intelligent, reasoned, and thoughtful people” – her name for the Blue Tribe – can’t get together enough energy to really hate Osama, let alone Muslims in general. We understand that what he did was bad, but it didn’t anger us personally. When he died, we were able to very rationally apply our better nature and our Far Mode beliefs about how it’s never right to be happy about anyone else’s death.

    On the other hand, that same group absolutely loathed Thatcher. Most of us (though not all) can agree, if the question is posed explicitly, that Osama was a worse person than Thatcher. But in terms of actual gut feeling? Osama provokes a snap judgment of “flawed human being”, Thatcher a snap judgment of “scum”.

    I started this essay by pointing out that, despite what geographical and cultural distance would suggest, the Nazis’ outgroup was not the vastly different Japanese, but the almost-identical German Jews.

    And my hypothesis, stated plainly, is that if you’re part of the Blue Tribe, then your outgroup isn’t al-Qaeda, or Muslims, or blacks, or gays, or transpeople, or Jews, or atheists – it’s the Red Tribe.

    VII.

    “But racism and sexism and cissexism and anti-Semitism are these giant all-encompassing social factors that verge upon being human universals! Surely you’re not arguing that mere political differences could ever come close to them!”

    One of the ways we know that racism is a giant all-encompassing social factor is the Implicit Association Test. Psychologists ask subjects to quickly identify whether words or photos are members of certain gerrymandered categories, like “either a white person’s face or a positive emotion” or “either a black person’s face and a negative emotion”. Then they compare to a different set of gerrymandered categories, like “either a black person’s face or a positive emotion” or “either a white person’s face or a negative emotion.” If subjects have more trouble (as measured in latency time) connecting white people to negative things than they do white people to positive things, then they probably have subconscious positive associations with white people. You can try it yourself here.

    Of course, what the test famously found was that even white people who claimed to have no racist attitudes at all usually had positive associations with white people and negative associations with black people on the test. There are very many claims and counterclaims about the precise meaning of this, but it ended up being a big part of the evidence in favor of the current consensus that all white people are at least a little racist.

    Anyway, three months ago, someone finally had the bright idea of doing an Implicit Association Test with political parties, and they found that people’s unconscious partisan biases were half again as strong as their unconscious racial biases (h/t Bloomberg. For example, if you are a white Democrat, your unconscious bias against blacks (as measured by something called a d-score) is 0.16, but your unconscious bias against Republicans will be 0.23. The Cohen’s d for racial bias was 0.61, by the book a “moderate” effect size; for party it was 0.95, a “large” effect size.

    Okay, fine, but we know race has real world consequences. Like, there have been several studies where people sent out a bunch of identical resumes except sometimes with a black person’s photo and other times with a white person’s photo, and it was noticed that employers were much more likely to invite the fictional white candidates for interviews. So just some stupid Implicit Association Test results can’t compare to that, right?

    Iyengar and Westwood also decided to do the resume test for parties. They asked subjects to decide which of several candidates should get a scholarship (subjects were told this was a genuine decision for the university the researchers were affiliated with). Some resumes had photos of black people, others of white people. And some students listed their experience in Young Democrats of America, others in Young Republicans of America.

    Once again, discrimination on the basis of party was much stronger than discrimination on the basis of race. The size of the race effect for white people was only 56-44 (and in the reverse of the expected direction); the size of the party effect was about 80-20 for Democrats and 69-31 for Republicans.

    If you want to see their third experiment, which applied yet another classic methodology used to detect racism and once again found partyism to be much stronger, you can read the paper.

    I & W did an unusually thorough job, but this sort of thing isn’t new or ground-breaking. People have been studying “belief congruence theory” – the idea that differences in beliefs are more important than demographic factors in forming in-groups and outgroups – for decades. As early as 1967, Smith et al were doing surveys all over the country and finding that people were more likely to accept friendships across racial lines than across beliefs; in the forty years since then, the observation has been replicated scores of times. Insko, Moe, and Nacoste’s 2006 review Belief Congruence And Racial Discrimination concludes that:

    The literature was judged supportive of a weak version of belief congruence theory which states that in those contexts in which social pressure is nonexistent or ineffective, belief is more important than race as a determinant of racial or ethnic discrimination. Evidence for a strong version of belief congruence theory (which states that in those contexts in which social pressure is nonexistent, or ineffective, belief is the only determinant of racial or ethnic discrimination) and was judged much more problematic.

    One of the best-known examples of racism is the “Guess Who’s Coming To Dinner” scenario where parents are scandalized about their child marrying someone of a different race. Pew has done some good work on this and found that only 23% of conservatives and 1% (!) of liberals admit they would be upset in this situation. But Pew also asked how parents would feel about their child marrying someone of a different political party. Now 30% of conservatives and 23% of liberals would get upset. Average them out, and you go from 12% upsetness rate for race to 27% upsetness rate for party – more than double. Yeah, people do lie to pollsters, but a picture is starting to come together here.

    (Harvard, by the way, is a tossup. There are more black students – 11.5% – than conservative students – 10% – but there are more conservative faculty than black faculty.)

    Since people will delight in misinterpreting me here, let me overemphasize what I am not saying. I’m not saying people of either party have it “worse” than black people, or that partyism is more of a problem than racism, or any of a number of stupid things along those lines which I am sure I will nevertheless be accused of believing. Racism is worse than partyism because the two parties are at least kind of balanced in numbers and in resources, whereas the brunt of an entire country’s racism falls on a few underprivileged people. I am saying that the underlying attitudes that produce partyism are stronger than the underlying attitudes that produce racism, with no necessary implications on their social effects.

    But if we want to look at people’s psychology and motivations, partyism and the particular variant of tribalism that it represents are going to be fertile ground.

    VIII.

    Every election cycle like clockwork, conservatives accuse liberals of not being sufficiently pro-America. And every election cycle like clockwork, liberals give extremely unconvincing denials of this.

    “It’s not that we’re, like, against America per se. It’s just that…well, did you know Europe has much better health care than we do? And much lower crime rates? I mean, come on, how did they get so awesome? And we’re just sitting here, can’t even get the gay marriage thing sorted out, seriously, what’s wrong with a country that can’t…sorry, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, America. They’re okay. Cesar Chavez was really neat. So were some other people outside the mainstream who became famous precisely by criticizing majority society. That’s sort of like America being great, in that I think the parts of it that point out how bad the rest of it are often make excellent points. Vote for me!”

    (sorry, I make fun of you because I love you)

    There was a big brouhaha a couple of years ago when, as it first became apparent Obama had a good shot at the Presidency, Michelle Obama said that “for the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country.”

    Republicans pounced on the comment, asking why she hadn’t felt proud before, and she backtracked saying of course she was proud all the time and she loves America with the burning fury of a million suns and she was just saying that the Obama campaign was particularly inspiring.

    As unconvincing denials go, this one was pretty far up there. But no one really held it against her. Probably most Obama voters felt vaguely the same way. I was an Obama voter, and I have proud memories of spending my Fourth of Julys as a kid debunking people’s heartfelt emotions of patriotism. Aaron Sorkin:

    [What makes America the greatest country in the world?] It’s not the greatest country in the world! We’re seventh in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, third in median household income, No. 4 in labor force, and No. 4 in exports. So when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don’t know what the f*** you’re talking about.

    (Another good retort is “We’re number one? Sure – number one in incarceration rates, drone strikes, and making new parents go back to work!”)

    All of this is true, of course. But it’s weird that it’s such a classic interest of members of the Blue Tribe, and members of the Red Tribe never seem to bring it up.

    (“We’re number one? Sure – number one in levels of sexual degeneracy! Well, I guess probably number two, after the Netherlands, but they’re really small and shouldn’t count.”)

    My hunch – both the Red Tribe and the Blue Tribe, for whatever reason, identify “America” with the Red Tribe. Ask people for typically “American” things, and you end up with a very Red list of characteristics – guns, religion, barbecues, American football, NASCAR, cowboys, SUVs, unrestrained capitalism.

    That means the Red Tribe feels intensely patriotic about “their” country, and the Blue Tribe feels like they’re living in fortified enclaves deep in hostile territory.

    Here is a popular piece published on a major media site called America: A Big, Fat, Stupid Nation. Another: America: A Bunch Of Spoiled, Whiny Brats. Americans are ignorant, scientifically illiterate religious fanatics whose “patriotism” is actually just narcissism. You Will Be Shocked At How Ignorant Americans Are, and we should Blame The Childish, Ignorant American People.

    Needless to say, every single one of these articles was written by an American and read almost entirely by Americans. Those Americans very likely enjoyed the articles very much and did not feel the least bit insulted.

    And look at the sources. HuffPo, Salon, Slate. Might those have anything in common?

    On both sides, “American” can be either a normal demonym, or a code word for a member of the Red Tribe.

    IX.

    The other day, I logged into OKCupid and found someone who looked cool. I was reading over her profile and found the following sentence:

    Don’t message me if you’re a sexist white guy

    And my first thought was “Wait, so a sexist black person would be okay? Why?”

    (The girl in question was white as snow)

    Around the time the Ferguson riots were first starting, there were a host of articles with titles like Why White People Don’t Seem To Understand Ferguson, Why It’s So Hard For Whites To Understand Ferguson, and White Folks Listen Up And Let Me Tell You What Ferguson Is All About, this last of which says:

    Social media is full of people on both sides making presumptions, and believing what they want to believe. But it’s the white folks that don’t understand what this is all about. Let me put it as simply as I can for you [...] No matter how wrong you think Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown were, I think we can all agree they didn’t deserve to die over it. I want you white folks to understand that this is where the anger is coming from. You focused on the looting….”

    And on a hunch I checked the author photos, and every single one of these articles was written by a white person.

    White People Are Ruining America? White. White People Are Still A Disgrace? White. White Guys: We Suck And We’re Sorry? White. Bye Bye, Whiny White Dudes? White. Dear Entitled Straight White Dudes, I’m Evicting You From My Life? White. White Dudes Need To Stop Whitesplaining? White. Reasons Why Americans Suck #1: White People? White.

    We’ve all seen articles and comments and articles like this. Some unsavory people try to use them to prove that white people are the real victims or the media is biased against white people or something. Other people who are very nice and optimistic use them to show that some white people have developed some self-awareness and are willing to engage in self-criticism.

    But I think the situation with “white” is much the same as the situation with “American” – it can either mean what it says, or be a code word for the Red Tribe.
    (except on the blog Stuff White People Like, where it obviously serves as a code word for the Blue tribe. I don’t know, guys. I didn’t do it.)

    I realize that’s making a strong claim, but it would hardly be without precedent. When people say things like “gamers are misogynist”, do they mean the 52% of gamers who are women? Do they mean every one of the 59% of Americans from every walk of life who are known to play video or computer games occasionally? No. “Gamer” is a coded reference to the Gray Tribe, the half-branched-off collection of libertarianish tech-savvy nerds, and everyone knows it. As well expect that when people talk about “fedoras”, they mean Indiana Jones. Or when they talk about “urban youth”, they mean freshmen at NYU. Everyone knows exactly who we mean when we say “urban youth”, and them being young people who live in a city has only the most tenuous of relations to the actual concept.

    And I’m saying words like “American” and “white” work the same way. Bill Clinton was the “first black President”, but if Herman Cain had won in 2012 he’d have been the 43rd white president. And when an angry white person talks at great length about how much he hates “white dudes”, he is not being humble and self-critical.

    X.

    Imagine hearing that a liberal talk show host and comedian was so enraged by the actions of ISIS that he’d recorded and posted a video in which he shouts at them for ten minutes, cursing the “fanatical terrorists” and calling them “utter savages” with “savage values”.

    If I heard that, I’d be kind of surprised. It doesn’t fit my model of what liberal talk show hosts do.

    But the story I’m actually referring to is liberal talk show host / comedian Russell Brand making that same rant against Fox News for supporting war against the Islamic State, adding at the end that “Fox is worse than ISIS”.

    That fits my model perfectly. You wouldn’t celebrate Osama’s death, only Thatcher’s. And you wouldn’t call ISIS savages, only Fox News. Fox is the outgroup, ISIS is just some random people off in a desert. You hate the outgroup, you don’t hate random desert people.

    I would go further. Not only does Brand not feel much like hating ISIS, he has a strong incentive not to. That incentive is: the Red Tribe is known to hate ISIS loudly and conspicuously. Hating ISIS would signal Red Tribe membership, would be the equivalent of going into Crips territory with a big Bloods gang sign tattooed on your shoulder.
    But this might be unfair. What would Russell Brand answer, if we asked him to justify his decision to be much angrier at Fox than ISIS?

    He might say something like “Obviously Fox News is not literally worse than ISIS. But here I am, talking to my audience, who are mostly white British people and Americans. These people already know that ISIS is bad; they don’t need to be told that any further. In fact, at this point being angry about how bad ISIS is, is less likely to genuinely change someone’s mind about ISIS, and more likely to promote Islamophobia. The sort of people in my audience are at zero risk of becoming ISIS supporters, but at a very real risk of Islamophobia. So ranting against ISIS would be counterproductive and dangerous.

    On the other hand, my audience of white British people and Americans is very likely to contain many Fox News viewers and supporters. And Fox, while not quite as evil as ISIS, is still pretty bad. So here’s somewhere I have a genuine chance to reach people at risk and change minds. Therefore, I think my decision to rant against Fox News, and maybe hyperbolically say they were ‘worse than ISIS’ is justified under the circumstances.”

    I have a lot of sympathy to hypothetical-Brand, especially to the part about Islamophobia. It does seem really possible to denounce ISIS’ atrocities to a population that already hates them in order to weak-man a couple of already-marginalized Muslims. We need to fight terrorism and atrocities – therefore it’s okay to shout at a poor girl ten thousand miles from home for wearing a headscarf in public. Christians are being executed for their faith in Sudan, therefore let’s picket the people trying to build a mosque next door.

    But my sympathy with Brand ends when he acts like his audience is likely to be fans of Fox News.

    In a world where a negligible number of Redditors oppose gay marriage and 1% of Less Wrongers identify conservative and I know 0/150 creationists, how many of the people who visit the YouTube channel of a well-known liberal activist with a Che-inspired banner, a channel whose episode names are things like “War: What Is It Good For?” and “Sarah Silverman Talks Feminism” – how many of them do you think are big Fox News fans?

    In a way, Russell Brand would have been braver taking a stand against ISIS than against Fox. If he attacked ISIS, his viewers would just be a little confused and uncomfortable. Whereas every moment he’s attacking Fox his viewers are like “HA HA! YEAH! GET ‘EM! SHOW THOSE IGNORANT BIGOTS IN THE outgroup WHO’S BOSS!”

    Brand acts as if there are just these countries called “Britain” and “America” who are receiving his material. Wrong. There are two parallel universes, and he’s only broadcasting to one of them.

    The result is exactly what we predicted would happen in the case of Islam. Bombard people with images of a far-off land they already hate and tell them to hate it more, and the result is ramping up the intolerance on the couple of dazed and marginalized representatives of that culture who have ended up stuck on your half of the divide. Sure enough, if industry or culture or community gets Blue enough, Red Tribe members start getting harassed, fired from their jobs (Brendan Eich being the obvious example) or otherwise shown the door.

    Think of Brendan Eich as a member of a tiny religious minority surrounded by people who hate that minority. Suddenly firing him doesn’t seem very noble.
    If you mix together Podunk, Texas and Mosul, Iraq, you can prove that Muslims are scary and very powerful people who are executing Christians all the time and have a great excuse for kicking the one remaining Muslim family, random people who never hurt anyone, out of town.

    And if you mix together the open-source tech industry and the parallel universe where you can’t wear a FreeBSD t-shirt without risking someone trying to exorcise you, you can prove that Christians are scary and very powerful people who are persecuting everyone else all the time, and you have a great excuse for kicking one of the few people willing to affiliate with the Red Tribe, a guy who never hurt anyone, out of town.

    When a friend of mine heard Eich got fired, she didn’t see anything wrong with it. “I can tolerate anything except intolerance,” she said.

    “Intolerance” is starting to look like another one of those words like “white” and “American”.

    “I can tolerate anything except the outgroup.” Doesn’t sound quite so noble now, does it?

    XI.

    We started by asking: millions of people are conspicuously praising every outgroup they can think of, while conspicuously condemning their own in-group. This seems contrary to what we know about social psychology. What’s up?

    We noted that outgroups are rarely literally “the group most different from you”, and in fact far more likely to be groups very similar to you sharing almost all your characteristics and living in the same area.

    We then noted that although liberals and conservatives live in the same area, they might as well be two totally different countries or universe as far as level of interaction were concerned.

    Contra the usual idea of them being marked only by voting behavior, we described them as very different tribes with totally different cultures. You can speak of “American culture” only in the same way you can speak of “Asian culture” – that is, with a lot of interior boundaries being pushed under the rug.

    The outgroup of the Red Tribe is occasionally blacks and gays and Muslims, more often the Blue Tribe.

    The Blue Tribe has performed some kind of very impressive act of alchemy, and transmuted all of its outgroup hatred to the Red Tribe.

    This is not surprising. Ethnic differences have proven quite tractable in the face of shared strategic aims. Even the Nazis, not known for their ethnic tolerance, were able to get all buddy-buddy with the Japanese when they had a common cause.

    Research suggests Blue Tribe / Red Tribe prejudice to be much stronger than better-known types of prejudice like racism. Once the Blue Tribe was able to enlist the blacks and gays and Muslims in their ranks, they became allies of convenience who deserve to be rehabilitated with mildly condescending paeans to their virtue. “There never was a coward where the shamrock grows.”

    Spending your entire life insulting the other tribe and talking about how terrible they are makes you look, well, tribalistic. It is definitely not high class. So when members of the Blue Tribe decide to dedicate their entire life to yelling about how terrible the Red Tribe is, they make sure that instead of saying “the Red Tribe”, they say “America”, or “white people”, or “straight white men”. That way it’s humble self-criticism. They are so interested in justice that they are willing to critique their own beloved side, much as it pains them to do so. We know they are not exaggerating, because one might exaggerate the flaws of an enemy, but that anyone would exaggerate their own flaws fails the criterion of embarrassment.

    The Blue Tribe always has an excuse at hand to persecute and crush any Red Tribers unfortunate enough to fall into its light-matter-universe by defining them as all-powerful domineering oppressors. They appeal to the fact that this is definitely the way it works in the Red Tribe’s dark-matter-universe, and that’s in the same country so it has to be the same community for all intents and purposes. As a result, every Blue Tribe institution is permanently licensed to take whatever emergency measures are necessary against the Red Tribe, however disturbing they might otherwise seem.

    And so how virtuous, how noble the Blue Tribe! Perfectly tolerant of all of the different groups that just so happen to be allied with them, never intolerant unless it happen to be against intolerance itself. Never stooping to engage in petty tribal conflict like that awful Red Tribe, but always nobly criticizing their own culture and striving to make it better!

    Sorry. But I hope this is at least a little convincing. The weird dynamic of outgroup-philia and ingroup-phobia isn’t anything of the sort. It’s just good old-fashioned in-group-favoritism and outgroup bashing, a little more sophisticated and a little more sneaky.

    XII.

    This essay is bad and I should feel bad.

    I should feel bad because I made exactly the mistake I am trying to warn everyone else about, and it wasn’t until I was almost done that I noticed.

    How virtuous, how noble I must be! Never stooping to engage in petty tribal conflict like that silly Red Tribe, but always nobly criticizing my own tribe and striving to make it better.

    Yeah. Once I’ve written a ten thousand word essay savagely attacking the Blue Tribe, either I’m a very special person or they’re my outgroup. And I’m not that special.

    Just as you can pull a fast one and look humbly self-critical if you make your audience assume there’s just one American culture, so maybe you can trick people by assuming there’s only one Blue Tribe.

    I’m pretty sure I’m not Red, but I did talk about the Grey Tribe above, and I show all the risk factors for being one of them. That means that, although my critique of the Blue Tribe may be right or wrong, in terms of motivation it comes from the same place as a Red Tribe member talking about how much they hate al-Qaeda or a Blue Tribe member talking about how much they hate ignorant bigots. And when I boast of being able to tolerate Christians and Southerners whom the Blue Tribe is mean to, I’m not being tolerant at all, just noticing people so far away from me they wouldn’t make a good outgroup anyway.

    My arguments might be correct feces, but they’re still feces.

    I had fun writing this article. People do not have fun writing articles savagely criticizing their in-group. People can criticize their in-group, it’s not humanly impossible, but it takes nerves of steel, it makes your blood boil, you should sweat blood. It shouldn’t be fun.

    You can bet some white guy on Gawker who week after week churns out “Why White People Are So Terrible” and “Here’s What Dumb White People Don’t Understand” is having fun and not sweating any blood at all. He’s not criticizing his in-group, he’s never even considered criticizing his in-group. I can’t blame him. Criticizing the in-group is a really difficult project I’ve barely begun to build the mental skills necessary to even consider.

    I can think of criticisms of my own tribe. Important criticisms, true ones. But the thought of writing them makes my blood boil.

    I imagine might I feel like some liberal US Muslim leader, when he goes on the O’Reilly Show, and O’Reilly ambushes him and demands to know why he and other American Muslims haven’t condemned beheadings by ISIS more, demands that he criticize them right there on live TV. And you can see the wheels in the Muslim leader’s head turning, thinking something like “Okay, obviously beheadings are terrible and I hate them as much as anyone. But you don’t care even the slightest bit about the victims of beheadings. You’re just looking for a way to score points against me so you can embarass all Muslims. And I would rather personally behead every single person in the world than give a smug bigot like you a single microgram more stupid self-satisfaction than you’ve already got.”

    That is how I feel when asked to criticize my own tribe, even for correct reasons. If you think you’re criticizing your own tribe, and your blood is not at that temperature, consider the possibility that you aren’t.

    But if I want Self-Criticism Virtue Points, criticizing the Grey Tribe is the only honest way to get them. And if I want Tolerance Points, my own personal cross to bear right now is tolerating the Blue Tribe. I need to remind myself that when they are bad people, they are merely Osama-level bad people instead of Thatcher-level bad people. And when they are good people, they are powerful and necessary crusaders against the evils of the world.

    The worst thing that could happen to this post is to have it be used as convenient feces to fling at the Blue Tribe whenever feces are necessary. Which, given what has happened to my last couple of posts along these lines and the obvious biases of my own subconscious, I already expect it will be.

    But the best thing that could happen to this post is that it makes a lot of people, especially myself, figure out how to be more tolerant. Not in the “of course I’m tolerant, why shouldn’t I be?” sense of the Emperor in Part I. But in the sense of “being tolerant makes me see red, makes me sweat blood, but darn it I am going to be tolerant anyway.”
    Source

    I had this passed to me recently and thought it was interesting enough to be worth sharing. Plus, I know how much you guys love when I quote entire novels here and then ask you to read them as a basis for discussion.

  2. #2
    Pretty much spot on.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    I wanted to do my usual conservative "I agree with most of it" thing, but I read through the doorstopper again, and can't really find anything of importance to disagree with.

  4. #4
    I don't think self-criticism or self-group criticism is as hard as he makes it out to be but other than that I liked it. I was wondering, before section XII, if he realized he was doing exactly what he was ranting against but he did notice so . . .
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  5. #5
    I skimmed it but this caught my eye:

    "The worst reaction I’ve ever gotten to a blog post was when I wrote about the death of Osama bin Laden. I’ve written all sorts of stuff about race and gender and politics and whatever, but that was the worst.

    I didn’t come out and say I was happy he was dead. But some people interpreted it that way, and there followed a bunch of comments and emails and Facebook messages about how could I possibly be happy about the death of another human being, even if he was a bad person? Everyone, even Osama, is a human being, and we should never rejoice in the death of a fellow man. One commenter came out and said:

    I’m surprised at your reaction. As far as people I casually stalk on the internet (ie, LJ and Facebook), you are the first out of the “intelligent, reasoned and thoughtful” group to be uncomplicatedly happy about this development and not to be, say, disgusted at the reactions of the other 90% or so.

    This commenter was right. Of the “intelligent, reasoned, and thoughtful” people I knew, the overwhelming emotion was conspicuous disgust that other people could be happy about his death. I hastily backtracked and said I wasn’t happy per se, just surprised and relieved that all of this was finally behind us.

    And I genuinely believed that day that I had found some unexpected good in people – that everyone I knew was so humane and compassionate that they were unable to rejoice even in the death of someone who hated them and everything they stood for.

    Then a few years later, Margaret Thatcher died. And on my Facebook wall – made of these same “intelligent, reasoned, and thoughtful” people – the most common response was to quote some portion of the song “Ding Dong, The Witch Is Dead”. Another popular response was to link the videos of British people spontaneously throwing parties in the street, with comments like “I wish I was there so I could join in”. From this exact same group of people, not a single expression of disgust or a “c’mon, guys, we’re all human beings here.”

    I gently pointed this out at the time, and mostly got a bunch of “yeah, so what?”, combined with links to an article claiming that “the demand for respectful silence in the wake of a public figure’s death is not just misguided but dangerous”.

    And that was when something clicked for me.

    You can talk all you want about Islamophobia, but my friend’s “intelligent, reasoned, and thoughtful people” – her name for the Blue Tribe – can’t get together enough energy to really hate Osama, let alone Muslims in general. We understand that what he did was bad, but it didn’t anger us personally. When he died, we were able to very rationally apply our better nature and our Far Mode beliefs about how it’s never right to be happy about anyone else’s death.

    On the other hand, that same group absolutely loathed Thatcher.
    "

    Liberals... the hatred of the 'minority' (and how the F is female a minority... I'll never understand) who is conservative brings out the most rabid forms of hate among liberals.

  6. #6
    For some science behind this: traditionally, American politics had plenty of cross-cutting cleavages. What that meant is that even though any two people might have disagreed on important issue A, they probably agreed on important issue B. A Democrat and a Republican in the northeast might have disagreed about government benefits, but agreed on social policy. Someone might have called themselves a conservative, but still supported tax increases, which would put them on the same side as left-wingers on the latter issue. This meant that having a political party other than your own win an election would hurt, but it might also serve as an opportunity to see some laws passed that your own party wouldn't support. It also meant that most people thought that those supporting the other party have some good ideas and some bad ideas. Nowadays, there are fewer and fewer cross-cutting cleavages. People who call themselves Democrats and Republicans have seen their policy preferences diverge in almost every issue area. An election defeat means getting virtually nothing, which sharply raises the stakes of the elections themselves. Additionally, Democratic and Republican voters have fewer and fewer similar issue positions, which means each side thinks the other is insane. As a result, we get study after study showing that people from each party actively discriminate against individuals from the other party, whether it comes to jobs, friends, or significant others. In fact, it's become acceptable to refuse to date from the other party or to refuse to let someone from the other party into your home.

    Lastly, I'm not saying the US is anywhere near a civil war (we're not), but one of the greatest qualitative differences between at-risk countries that end up having civil wars and those that do not is whether that society has cross-cutting cleavages or not. If a country has a majority political/ethnic/religious group, and that group has identical views on the main issues, while the minority groups have an opposite set of views, then the minority has no hope of being a majority on any issue. Not exactly a recipe for peace and compromise.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #7
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    It's the old US-American illness of seeing only black-and-white, as it so aptly demonstrated by Lewk.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  8. #8
    He might say something like “Obviously Fox News is not literally worse than ISIS. But here I am, talking to my audience, who are mostly white British people and Americans. These people already know that ISIS is bad; they don’t need to be told that any further. In fact, at this point being angry about how bad ISIS is, is less likely to genuinely change someone’s mind about ISIS, and more likely to promote Islamophobia. The sort of people in my audience are at zero risk of becoming ISIS supporters, but at a very real risk of Islamophobia. So ranting against ISIS would be counterproductive and dangerous.
    Ok, this is being exceptionally generous to Russel Brand.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    It's the old US-American illness of seeing only black-and-white, as it so aptly demonstrated by Lewk.
    oooh, those ​goddamn Americans
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Ok, this is being exceptionally generous to Russel Brand.
    Narcissistic psychopath would be a better description of him.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    It's the old US-American illness of seeing only black-and-white, as it so aptly demonstrated by Lewk.
    Tbh Khen I don't think multi-party European nations are free from this tendency towards political/ideological tribalism. I know Sweden certainly isn't, if my facebook feed or Swedish media leading up to the election are any reliable indicators (which they are) I won't presume to speak for Germany, but a Swede who'd make the comment you made in this context would very likely be a member of a particular tribe that "hates" both its domestic political opponents as well as the US, whereas those political opponents would probably have a more favorable view of the US (warts and all). Sweden has developed an entrenched "political blocs" system consisting of two major blocs, with a third on the rise.

    Thanks for the essay Wraith, it's one of the best things I've read in the past couple of weeks My enjoyment no doubt reflects my slow and otherwise almost imperceptible descent into the Snark Matter world of the Grey Tribe.

    I believe this tendency towards tribalism is being deliberately leveraged for summat shortsighted tactical/strategic reasons, and I think it may be worth bearing in mind that this is an aspect of human behaviour that seems to have been selected for over the eons. Compromise is betrayal, cowardice or just plain boring. Effective differentiation is good marketing, "good" business and really good war.

    I don't know how anyone would go about changing the debate-driven political climate to one less influenced by political or ideological tribalism. Esp. not since what you explicitly believe (and indirectly cause) is, by today's standards, a far more legitimate indicator of virtue or guilt than almost any inherent human characteristic. It's far more intimately tied to matters of right and wrong, and lends itself readily to reasoning about culpability, two things that we're probably hard-wired to obsess about. Nevertheless, this is a matter that would be worthy of discussion at least as a part of a modern university education.

    Even though my political inclinations have slowly drifted towards the center-off, I still have great difficulties suppressing the automatic feeling that members of the Red Tribe are reprehensible reprobates
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  12. #12
    I think one of the main driving forces of this trend is a media (both traditional and not) that's obsessed with putting people in proper "boxes". Historically, most people didn't have a reason to feel strongly about most issues. Now everyone is willing to fight to the death for issues that are of minimal importance and have no effect on the person in question or anyone around them.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
    An interesting read, Wraith. While I am inclined to add to the chorus of 'he put it so nicely', I'm going to inject a note of disagreement here. He spends a lot of time talking about how his self-selection has produced a homogeneous friend population, somewhere in the 'blue' or 'grey' tribes he identifies. He then extrapolates his personal experience to the United States as a whole (and, by extension, much of the world). I think this is deeply flawed for two reasons. First, he dismisses challenges to his blue/red division (e.g. 'Romney republicans', libertarians and the like) on the basis of a clear 'no true Scotsman' fallacy. Just because he wants to divide people up neatly into a few groups that hate each other deeply doesn't mean that our population will neatly sort into these groups. Loki's comments and the research cited by the OP aside, there is a healthy middle ground in the United States that does not fit into these 'tribes' he identifies. Certainly we see that most of our elected representatives of opposing parties have grown further and further apart on a variety of issues, but that's more a symptom of our primary and electoral system, not representative of an underlying polarization. Ditto for our media and social media demagogues - you don't get clicks or ratings for 'maybe we should all compromise'.

    Is it possible that this public polarization contributes to an underlying personal one, in time? Perhaps; certainly some of the research supports that (though they often select their study populations to boost the effect size). But this brings me to my second point. If the OP (sorry, don't know his name, don't mean Wriathy here) wants to generalize about the US from his personal network, I'll do the same. I would hazard a guess that I grew up in a not-too-dissimilar cultural and social milieu from the author. My entire social circle is absurdly well educated, broadly international, young, technical, etc... and centered in blue states (currently I live in a state so blue that I generally have few choices on election day because the other party doesn't bother contesting most seats). We should be a lock for the 'blue tribe', no? And yet, large portions of my social circle are anything but - from the Uruguayan who decries government waste and bureaucracy to the many friends who favor more interventionist foreign policies to the daughter of a conservative Australian politician. Oh, and pretty much all of my circle likes football. The real kind, not that wishy-washy European crap. My crowd is probably divided 80/20 on gay marriage (though a reasonable proportion of the 80 don't approve of homosexuality much, but see it as a rights issue). Many are some variant of religious - some are creationists. They make fun of people who can afford to shop at Whole Foods (and, for the most part, avoid organic produce and have no issues with GMOs), but also favor healthier, balanced meals at odds with the 'steak and potatoes' stereotype. They think there's problems with a lot of sclerotic European governments and economies, even as they think there's something to be said about universal health care and better funded public transit. And they sure as hell didn't celebrate the death of Margaret Thatcher - or OBL. My family includes a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat teacher whose union is helping one of the most indebted states stay that way, an Occupy Wall Street activist so far on the fringe it's hard to tell what her 'tribe' would be, two vaguely center-left moderates, a fairly mainstream Republican, and a right wing religious conservative. Sort that into your tribes.

    The point is that this guy is living in an echo chamber of nutjobs and feels that it's emblematic of how this postulated 'tribe' system works. I think that he makes some good points about how people related to their political opponents, and that this 'outgroup' idea has its merits. But the American populace is far more full of relatively reasonable people than he thinks.

  14. #14
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Oh, and pretty much all of my circle likes football. The real kind, not that wishy-washy European crap.
    Yah, keep telling yourself that. A sport where the ball is carried around most of the time shouldn't be allowed to be called football.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Yah, keep telling yourself that. A sport where the ball is carried around most of the time shouldn't be allowed to be called football.
    Sorry, I wasn't listening. I'm a bit distracted because it's Football Day in America. Fuck yeah!

  16. #16
    Wiggin, out of curiosity, which of the two social circles--yours and the author's--do you believe is more representative of the US as a whole? To the extent that such generalization is informative.

    By your description I would not have expected you and your circle to be "a lock for the 'blue tribe'" any more than my own circle is, or those of many posters here. Privilege, education, financial security and broad exposure make for a different kind of social circle.

    In my case, I know that, though I have friends and family-members and acquaintances who hold views that are either very different from mine or that come into conflict with mine, it's easier for me to "tune out" those views--and focus on commonalities--than it is for some of them to accept mine (were I to publicly air them and argue for them). I can luxuriate in a position of relative privilege that affords me the ability to be less emotionally (and financially and socially) invested in many matters that are central to political and ideological conflicts, and the same goes for many of my friends who, like me, grew up in a tiny summat isolated international bubble (and have continued to exist within a bubble as adults).

    Participating in adversarial online and RL discussions where I can change sides from time to time is a choice I can make because I am guaranteed continued membership in this group of eggheads, and backing off from some debates is something I feel safe in doing because I know that, no matter what, I'll probably do all right. Taxes going up? I'll be all right. Taxes going down? I'll be all right. This sense of safety is influenced to some extent by concerns about family and friends, whose interests and views we all occasionally take on as our own to champion, but borrowed or vicarious interests aren't the same as those that are wholly our own.

    I can't speak for you or for your social circle, but I have never had any doubts about my membership in a particular kind of group, due to having had a particular kind of life, that in many ways is just not representative. It's honestly just another kind of tribe, albeit one that doesn't have as strong a presence as the other more established ones. I'm not just being over-enthusiastic about a metaphor. The tribal nature of this group is displayed in our occasional disdain for those who aren't equally "enlightened", those who aren't able or inclined to switch hats or say things that go against their stated views "for the sake of argument", those whose social circles aren't equally diverse, etc. Neither the red nor the blue tribe have any room for wishy-washy unconvinced and non-zealous turncoats who sometimes attempt to look down on the war from above and try to say things "for the sake of argument".

    Even if the red/blue tribal model doesn't accommodate a particular social constellation, I don't think the gist of the essay is wrong, and, like any other model, I don't expect it to account perfectly for every single case. I also do not think the model is intended to account for family members.

    That being said, you're probably just dirty purplish Grey. freak
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  17. #17
    It would be interesting to stratify the findings of some of those studies on political tribalism by age
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think one of the main driving forces of this trend is a media (both traditional and not) that's obsessed with putting people in proper "boxes". Historically, most people didn't have a reason to feel strongly about most issues. Now everyone is willing to fight to the death for issues that are of minimal importance and have no effect on the person in question or anyone around them.
    I have to admit I can't really think of any good examples of the kind of issue you're referring to that aren't about self-interest, strategic interest or solidaric interest.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I have to admit I can't really think of any good examples of the kind of issue you're referring to that aren't about self-interest, strategic interest or solidaric interest.
    Gay marriage, new oil/gas pipelines, problems relating to killing of US ambassador to Libya, half of the issues relating to the healthcare law, debt ceilings, limited background checks for gun ownership (new ones include views on shooting people who attack cops and vague "yes means yes" sexual assault policies). Each policy has a line in the sand that you can't cross if you don't want to be labeled as being a member of the "other tribe". These are things that directly affect a tiny portion of the population (if any). One might vaguely support the group that's interested in one or more of those issues, but that hardly means basing one's own social circles on the position people take on these issues.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    <snip>
    The author admits the over-simplification of the divisions he assigns when he first makes them; it's there because it's not strongly relevant to the point being made in the post. Obviously dividing everyone up into 2.5 groups is a simplification.

    The people who are actually into this sort of thing sketch out a bunch of speculative tribes and subtribes, but to make it easier, let me stick with two and a half.

  21. #21
    Hmm. I've always thought of myself as solidly blue. But I was pretty happy when Osama got killed -- I thought he should have suffered more (for the sake of more justice, I guess), but consoled myself thinking that having to hide so thoroughly and live in fear of discovery was a lot of suffering. I didn't react to Thatcher's death with anything like happiness, more indifferent than anything else. I abhor Fox News but comparing them in any way to ISIS is ridiculous and in my opinion undermines pretty much anything you say. And bombing ISIS is fine by me, the more the better. I often fancy myself as being socially libertarian, and I like to watch football on occasion, though I don't follow sports much in general. So maybe I'm more gray than blue.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Gay marriage, new oil/gas pipelines, problems relating to killing of US ambassador to Libya, half of the issues relating to the healthcare law, debt ceilings, limited background checks for gun ownership (new ones include views on shooting people who attack cops and vague "yes means yes" sexual assault policies). Each policy has a line in the sand that you can't cross if you don't want to be labeled as being a member of the "other tribe". These are things that directly affect a tiny portion of the population (if any). One might vaguely support the group that's interested in one or more of those issues, but that hardly means basing one's own social circles on the position people take on these issues.
    I have to admit I'm still not really seeing where you're coming from. Several of these things are proxy indicators of more important things! They don't exist in isolation, and where they do you're likely to have a problem with arbitrariness and a lack of consistency.

    Putting aside the possibility that someone somewhere may actually have a gay friend--or believe in the importance of solidarity with a marginalized group--an opposition to gay marriage is likely underpinned by a particular view on equality of rights or on discrimination that many people find morally wrong to the point of being reprehensible.

    I think theft and murder are immoral acts, and I don't know that I should accept someone into my social circle, who thinks it's okay to steal from or murder people who aren't me, my family or my friends. I have obligations not only to my wallet, or to those closest to me, but also to my sense of right and wrong. And so do you! If I were a handsome, erudite and eloquent conservative man who had a favourable view of pedophilia and the rape of women, would you be inclined to include me in your social circle, even though you're an adult man and (for the sake of argument) have no children in your immediate circle of family and friends?

    I listed "self-interest, strategic interest or solidaric interest." Almost every single one of the examples you mention can fall into one of those categories, and I think you'd meet with disagreement on the magnitude of importance that should be attached to them in each case. On each issue, the position one holds may be clearly linked to a more general view or principle that can be of greater importance. Gay marriage --> equal rights, views on religious laws, views on how personal morality should influence laws. Oil/gas pipelines --> positions on environmental issues that will eventually influence us all. Healthcare law --> burden on businesses vs. importance of welfare and solidarity wrt justice and productivity. Debt ceilings --> views on the govt's revenues and expenditures, views on sabotaging the govt, views on extortion or on democracy, etc. Background checks --> safety (imaginary and real) from nutjobs with guns who may shoot any one of us when we least expect it. Cops and shootings --> tough on crime vs. encouraging unchecked police brutality (admittedly only a problem for darkies). Consent laws --> ... well, er, 50% of the population consists of women, you probably know at least a few of them, and a not-insignificant portion of women in the population have been or will be forced in some way to have sex without their consent or against their wishes in a way that'll probably feel kinda sucky for them due to widespread and honestly kinda shitty views on consent and sex.

    In each case (except perhaps the ambassador to Libya), any given position is likely to be symptomatic of deeper beliefs and views that are either of interest on their own or to the extent that they will likely inform actions that may or will influence our lives. And before you dismiss those who bother about things that "may" influence them, I'd ask you to consider how you'd feel about someone taking risks with your money, your home, your health or the health of your loved ones, with no objective damage caused, but done without your consent and goodwill. I don't think it's easy to dismiss someone else's concerns about these things just because our subjective assessments happen to differ from theirs in some specific cases, because there are other cases in which our feelings will be quite similar.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    So maybe I'm more gray than blue.
    Pretty much everyone on this online debate forum, that originated on a gaming website, is some kinda grey.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  24. #24
    Btw, on a second read-through some of the problems with his analysis and argumentation stand out more clearly, even though I still find myself appreciating the essay as a whole. more later
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  25. #25
    I'd just like to say this about the OP: it's really fucking long.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I'd just like to say this about the OP: it's really fucking long.
    I agree. And I actually read the whole thing, which is a big deal. 99.3% of the time I wouldn't/couldn't take the time.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  27. #27
    Usually, I'd attack the piece for having a lot of irrelevant material, but the guy has a great writing style. Not boring at all.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    The author admits the over-simplification of the divisions he assigns when he first makes them; it's there because it's not strongly relevant to the point being made in the post. Obviously dividing everyone up into 2.5 groups is a simplification.
    I strongly disagree that it's irrelevant to his article. His basic thesis is that America is segregating into tribes - perhaps not geographically (though that as well), but socially. This leads to seeing other tribes as 'other' and poisons our political dialogue. I dispute the postulate that these discrete tribes exist, and that people fit into them in any meaningful way.

    Identity is a complex thing, and I don't think most people can be easily categorized. Yes, it's true that along some axes we are seeing increasing polarization in the US, but I strongly disagree that this in any way results in the neat segregation he yammers about. This 1 in a bajillion chance he spends so much time talking about is false - either because he isn't evaluating the identity of his social circle critically enough, or because he has an unusually homogeneous group of friends.

    If this categorization and subsequent self-segregation is not actually happening as he posits, then it's awfully hard for us to view opposing 'tribes' as 'other'. I have plenty of demagogues in my social circle, as he does, and I have heard some of the same ridiculous stuff - whether it's absurd hyperbole about Barack Obama, Margaret Thatcher, rape culture, or the evils of climate change science. But it's telling that all of these exist in my social circle, and the vast majority of my crowd ignore such hyperbole, on both sides. People more or less treat others as, well, people, not as political opponents in some massive identity war.

    In short, I question his tone in arguing that the existence of demagogues and stereotypes is in any way new or worrisome. Most people have identities so much more complex than a 'red tribe' or 'blue tribe' that the distinction is irrelevant. If you gave a computer a vast amount of data about people - their shopping, travel, voting, emails, social networks, etc. - and ran a naive classifier against the data, there is no way you'd get only 2 or 3 groupings. You'd instead get dozens, or hundreds of overlapping groups - for proof, just look at the more and more sophisticated market segments that advertisers are targeting. In such a world, do we really have widespread convictions that some defined group is the 'other'? I don't think so.

  29. #29
    Tribalism and religion are common threads woven in human history.

    I didn't know what The Outgroup meant as an OP title.....and I still don't know it means after reading the replies. I mean, the author is a good writer, but he hasn't managed to take "us", the reader, to the next level. Because we're still caught on the first level --critiquing his writing, and how we interpret it.

    Being Jewish or Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or Atheist should be hyperbole.....but it's not.

  30. #30
    Out-group is the group of which you're not a member; it's the group you define yourself against. It's the opposite of an in-group, which is the group of which you are a member and feel close ties to.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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