Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: That whole Carrier thing, or: the value of the bully pulpit?

  1. #1

    Default That whole Carrier thing, or: the value of the bully pulpit?

    I've been thinking about DJT's widely trumpeted 'success' in getting a subsidiary of United Technologies to keep ~1k jobs in the US rather than shipping them overseas. I am inclined to be deeply suspicious and dismissive of anything the president-elect does, and indeed I feel like this is a lot of hype with little substance. As others have rightly pointed out, this sort of retail arm-twisting will not being manufacturing jobs back to the US on the scale needed to change things, the incentives used were likely not worth the cost, and it is likely that Carrier will either pass costs along to consumers, cut worker benefits, or ship the jobs off eventually anyways.

    That being said, I have also heard broader critiques of his action, calling this 'crony capitalism' or modern day industrial policy, arguing that it is not the place of the president to get involved with the decisions of individual private firms. While I have some sympathy with this opinion, I think a re-examination of this point might be warranted. While there is no doubt that POTUS can and should be involved primarily in setting national policies (through both executive action/regulation as well as through engaging with Congress) that would affect the entire course of the country rather than a piddling few jobs, we have to admit that at times the president's options for change are limited.

    We know that the forces of globalization are more or less unstoppable and that any rearguard action - including such stupid ideas as punitive tariffs for relocating jobs outside the US or Buy American clauses - will be at best stopgap measures. So even with the best crafted policies and perfect political support (e.g. efforts to reduce domestic labor costs as much as possible, comprehensive trade deals that address labor and environmental regulations in other countries, investment in higher end manufacturing and worker retraining, etc.) you're still going to have to face facts that inexorable forces are shifting certain jobs outside the US. As long as companies can only be cost-competitive if they use cheaper labor elsewhere, most of them are going to follow the money.

    Thus perhaps it makes sense for POTUS (or a POTUS-elect) to instead resort to the bully pulpit rather than any specific policies to achieve the goal of reducing manufacturing job losses. Being somewhat charitable, it's possible to imagine that DJT's goal was not to 'save' 1k jobs but instead to provide a signal to industry. Essentially, by publicly chastising companies that outsource jobs (e.g. Ford) and praising/incentivizing companies that stay, DJT is adding an element of reputational risk/cost to the calculations that companies make. The bully pulpit of the US President is as big as it gets, and having the president regularly praise and denigrate private companies might not be how we normally view the job, but it certainly is an interesting approach.

    We've already seen how some companies that choose to site most of their manufacturing in the US despite cheaper costs elsewhere tout it as a selling point; they see this as part of their investment in their brand that pays for the increased costs. Public naming and shaming (or praising) by POTUS might just magnify this advantage, especially for companies where labor costs are not a huge part of the cost of production (I suspect that something like clothing or shoes will still be much more cost competitive outside of the US, even though some brands - e.g. American Apparel, New Balance, etc. - even try with those labor-heavy products). I heard an interesting comment on NPR this morning to the effect that companies know they have to site some of their production in China if they don't want their IP stolen; it's just a cost of doing business. Perhaps a similar argument could be made in favor of presidential bullying in the US. Certainly smaller scale politicians - city mayors, governors, etc. - do a lot more of this kind of stuff, though obviously their effect is likely much smaller given their smaller audience.

    I'm very leery of this approach but I thought it might be worth a discussion. What do you guys think? Should POTUS in general focus on using the bully pulpit as a force multiplier in achieving policy goals? In this specific case, is it an unwarranted level of political interference in private enterprise, or is it justified? Is this likely to be effective on a broader scale rather than the individual fights DJT picks?
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Carrier will either pass costs along to consumers, cut worker benefits, or ship the jobs off eventually anyways.
    Carrier has already announced 2 of these 3 already.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Carrier has already announced 2 of these 3 already.
    I have indeed read the same things you have, OG, but obviously we don't have a counterfactual so don't have a sense of whether this is an improvement over what would have happened otherwise. Furthermore, increasing prices doesn't really solve their problem if they're not cost-competitive; it just reduces their market share. I'm inclined to believe that the price increase, at least, has nothing to do with the 1k 'saved' jobs.

    Irrespective of this, I'm more interested in the broader question rather than the specifics of the Carrier story.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  4. #4
    Playing this deal so early, and claiming so much of the credit for things he either had no hand in or are down right lies, was a very poor move on Trump's end. This is a giant signal to corporations on how to deal with trump, what threats to make, and what "incentives" to aim for. Sorta like how our telecommunications companys bilked the government for billions in fiber subsidiaries, but built very little, built it half assed, and neglected it to the point of being on the verge of nonoperational, then sold it all to the next sucker.

    Automation is coming no matter what. Especially within the next 4 years. Trying to tackle it one corporation at a time simply isn't going to work.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  5. #5
    Crony capitalism doesn't work, "picking winners" doesn't work. Market lethargy doesn't work. Free enterprise works.

    Actions like this might kill off immediate job losses but they result in long term market inefficiencies and long term job losses as innovation will ultimately happen elsewhere. You only need to look on the continent here to see what happens when you try and prevent job losses - more than one in ten unemployed and in some nations the majority of young people unemployed. It isn't a pretty sight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    The free market went out of fashion a couple of years ago. That's the funny thing with populists, they do things the way they want them, not necessarily the sensible way.
    Congratulations America

  7. #7
    Which is why I wanted the populist to lose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #8
    Wig, you're missing one important aspect of this: the president doesn't get to set taxes. That means it's not within Trump's power to give these companies tax breaks. And if they're not listening to him based on the promise of tax breaks, then why are they doing so? The implication is that he'll use the bureaucracy to punish them in some way if they do not. Is that the country you want to live in?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Which is why I wanted the populist to lose.
    So because you wanted them to lose you handed your ass to them?
    Congratulations America

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Wig, you're missing one important aspect of this: the president doesn't get to set taxes. That means it's not within Trump's power to give these companies tax breaks. And if they're not listening to him based on the promise of tax breaks, then why are they doing so? The implication is that he'll use the bureaucracy to punish them in some way if they do not. Is that the country you want to live in?
    I think that obviously the way things are portrayed by DJT is awful - the carrot of subsidies he can't directly give vs. the stick of some implied and unclear consequences by executive action. I'm suggesting, however, that there is an alternative to DJT's methodology that might bear more fruit - pure rhetoric. Going public with disappointment when a company chooses to relocate manufacturing, and lavishing praise on those that don't. It's purely a reputational cost I'm talking about here, not one related to the workings of government policy or enforcement.

    If you had asked me a few years ago if I thought this was a productive use of presidential time and political capital, I would have definitely said it isn't (despite the fact that it is indeed practiced widely at lower levels of government). Yet I'm trying to explore whether there is a set of circumstances where it might make sense without imperiling our important institutions.

    (RB, much of this post can also be a response to yours, but more directly: I don't think this really counts as 'picking winners' or 'crony capitalism' in the traditional sense of the terms. And while I hear your argument re: inefficiencies in using overpriced labor, I wonder whether this is a matter of externalities that could be corrected for, rather than an inefficiency.)



    Also, Hazir, could you please confine your tired arguments with RB to one or two threads?
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Interesting how you don't ask the person who actually dragged it into this topic by referring to his vote.
    Congratulations America

  12. #12
    In the end, 'that whole Carrier thing' ended up being more political blah blah. Trump may have capitalized on a sentiment, but it remains to be seen if he can actually deliver his promises on a larger scale. He's also made promises to coal country....

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    "We're from the government and we're here to help", once described as the nine scariest words in the English language by Ronald Reagan. And here we have Trump, telling the 'good people of Silicon Valley' that he's 'here to help'.
    Congratulations America

  14. #14
    To show why this bully pulpit idea isn't going to work, at least with Trump, look what he did to Boeing. Boeing CEO made some unfavorable comments about Trumps knowledge of international trade, so Trump attacks them on twitter with straight up lies about air force one. Knee jerk reaction was a stock dip with a market value of ~ a cool billion.

    Then vanity fair publishes an unfavorable review of one of Trump's restaurants so trump slams them on twitter with more lies. Now considering that Trump has some of the worst favorable ratings and is projected to win the presidency despite being 3 million behind in the popular vote Vanity found a way to capitalize. Their website now runs a banner that says "The Magazine That Trump Doesn't Want You To Read"
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  15. #15
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    I forgot to post here earlier, but I remembered that shortly after this Carrier thing be did the same with a car manufacturer (I forgot which), and its shares immediately took a hit. The news report however noted that this particular company had relatively far fewer operations abroad than other car manufacturers. Which is immediately my main problem with this: it's entirely arbitrary. What's to stop (and let's face it, especially with this president) for making comments like this about companies he doesn't like (doing actual harm because a presidential remark affects the stock market) while shielding friends?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  16. #16
    Nothing. That's why protectionism is a terrible thing and is not just bad for the economy but leads to corruption as protectionism means choosing "winners" and its in the interests of all companies to be the chosen ones and not have their suppliers as chosen ones [thus keeping their input costs low].
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I forgot to post here earlier, but I remembered that shortly after this Carrier thing be did the same with a car manufacturer (I forgot which), and its shares immediately took a hit. The news report however noted that this particular company had relatively far fewer operations abroad than other car manufacturers. Which is immediately my main problem with this: it's entirely arbitrary. What's to stop (and let's face it, especially with this president) for making comments like this about companies he doesn't like (doing actual harm because a presidential remark affects the stock market) while shielding friends?
    Nothing. Just like there's nothing that will stop him or campaign staff from saying campaign contributions are great things. . . and carefully hinting that if they're not forthcoming then this might just happen to them. It's an awful practice, no kind of substitute for law where there is a Constitutional requirement for equal protection. Wiggin said right at the beginning that this looks a lot like "crony capitalism" which is absolutely not something the Executive should be involved in.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I forgot to post here earlier, but I remembered that shortly after this Carrier thing be did the same with a car manufacturer (I forgot which), and its shares immediately took a hit. The news report however noted that this particular company had relatively far fewer operations abroad than other car manufacturers. Which is immediately my main problem with this: it's entirely arbitrary. What's to stop (and let's face it, especially with this president) for making comments like this about companies he doesn't like (doing actual harm because a presidential remark affects the stock market) while shielding friends?
    I don't particularly care what he tweets - I do care if he codifies his preferences for one company or another into law with the help of congress. I do care if he sics regulatory agencies on his 'enemies.' Beyond that - Trump is a person who happens to be president. What he chooses to say while being the president is his prerogative and doesn't bother me that much. If he said 'Yuck I hate Burger King' that isn't a a big brother issue to me.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I don't particularly care what he tweets - I do care if he codifies his preferences for one company or another into law with the help of congress. I do care if he sics regulatory agencies on his 'enemies.' Beyond that - Trump is a person who happens to be president. What he chooses to say while being the president is his prerogative and doesn't bother me that much. If he said 'Yuck I hate Burger King' that isn't a a big brother issue to me.
    You don't think what POTUS says has actual real world effects that hurt people? The president's comments have an impact, if you're the president you're no longer just a person, which admittedly is something Trump doesn't seem to grasp. You're president 24/7 not just from 9 to 5.

    If he says I hate burger king and as a result people boycott it, send death threats and the company takes a massive financial hit, you don't think a president should be above that? He's the fucking president not a tv commentator anymore.

    And before you say that's ludicrous that has happened to other targets of his tweets.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  20. #20
    He's acting more like a mafioso than a President like this.

    Nice business you have there, would be a shame if something were to happen to it ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #21
    When your bully pulpit causes legitimate violations of ethic rules

    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    When your bully pulpit causes legitimate violations of ethic rules

    Indeed, this is purely using his position for personal and familial gain (and Conway is just breaking ethics rules to suck up to her boss). Obviously unethical and a bad idea.

    As I've spent more time looking at Trump's interactions with industry, I think that - at least in his incarnation - this is a bad idea all around. I think the best argument against it (other than the obvious deficiencies in Trump's approach) is twofold: First, the bully pulpit as used this way is capricious - there are many companies that could keep more jobs in the US, and Trump only targets a handful. Secondly, precisely because it is capricious, it opens up the very real possibility that companies could be targeted for praise or criticism for things having little to do with their employment, manufacturing, or trade policies - likely how much they curry favor with the president and his family/advisers. I think that a well-intentioned president might be able to avoid such ethical minefields - though it would be hard. But it would be hard to ensure that companies still didn't try to curry favor with those of the president's advisers who don't have as high ethical standards.

    Perhaps a better (but less effective) way to use the bully pulpit would be simple 'naming and shaming' by government agencies - e.g. comprehensive reports on, say, job outsourcing or whatever. That avoids the issues of caprice and personal involvement by the administration but obviously has a much lower profile. I'm not convinced this is so important (not compared to, say, State Department reports on human rights or trafficking or whatever) but if one deemed it important enough that seems to be as far as one should go. Leaving things in the hands of a professionalized bureaucracy seems like the best approach, if one is going to do this sort of thing.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    You don't think what POTUS says has actual real world effects that hurt people? The president's comments have an impact, if you're the president you're no longer just a person, which admittedly is something Trump doesn't seem to grasp. You're president 24/7 not just from 9 to 5.

    If he says I hate burger king and as a result people boycott it, send death threats and the company takes a massive financial hit, you don't think a president should be above that? He's the fucking president not a tv commentator anymore.

    And before you say that's ludicrous that has happened to other targets of his tweets.
    Nah I don't think we should be focused on shit like that. Donald Trump was a celebrity used to voicing his opinion before he became the president. I don't see an issue with him continuing to do so. Now the minute he starts sending federal agents to shut down Burger King or issues executive orders to shut them down, or I don't do something super crazy that we've never ever seen in our politics and have the IRS go after his political opponents... then I have a problem. Until then his actions like this are good/bad on their own merits and I don't really care that it isn't 'presidential' to do so.

    There are big issues that should be alarming. The travel ban's roll out was an example of governmental incompetence, even if we agree to disagree on the need and/or constitutionality of the order even I will admit the surrounding chaos with it was just awful. It didn't demonstrate competency in any way and is worrisome.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Nothing. That's why protectionism is a terrible thing and is not just bad for the economy but leads to corruption as protectionism means choosing "winners" and its in the interests of all companies to be the chosen ones and not have their suppliers as chosen ones [thus keeping their input costs low].
    I said protectionism leads to corruption, it seems the Trump's have chosen to cut out the middle men.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •