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Thread: Guns vs. Federalism

  1. #1
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Default Guns vs. Federalism

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/0...ciprocity.html

    Don't worry, they'll make some exceptions for black people.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  2. #2
    How shit, this would be a nightmare for those fleeing abusive relationships.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    <--not a fan of the NYT new paywall block
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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Open in incognito tab.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    ScriptSafe. Just saying.
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    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    As little as I worry about the fears expressed in the article, and by opponents to this legislation in general, (someone who is looking to stalk, abuse, or kill their significant other is likely not going to be a stickler about adhering to local, state, or federal laws, with regard to concealed carry or otherwise), I still can't muster support for this bill. As much as I like the idea of being able to carry in states where I am currently prohibited from doing so, this does seem to be the wrong way of doing that. I like federalism. I want states to be able to experiment and try new things, and what works for Montana might not work for New York. The reverse is also true.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 12-07-2017 at 09:59 AM.

  7. #7
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    The first problem that came to my mind is that there is no national database or registry for these permits which means local police will have an aggravating time just checking out whether someone actually does have a legitimate permit or not. Some states make it a matter of public record, others do not. Finding the right agency to contact is a burden just by itself. And then, some states don't even maintain a database for their own permits. You might as well just legislate that a permit is not required for concealed carry in any of the 50 states.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  8. #8
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    The first problem that came to my mind is that there is no national database or registry for these permits which means local police will have an aggravating time just checking out whether someone actually does have a legitimate permit or not. Some states make it a matter of public record, others do not. Finding the right agency to contact is a burden just by itself. And then, some states don't even maintain a database for their own permits. You might as well just legislate that a permit is not required for concealed carry in any of the 50 states.
    I actually don't think this is as technically difficult a process as you do. My current permit is reciprocated by a majority of the states, and police there already have a way of identifying whether or not it is valid. As far as I know l, (I'll try and remember to ask one of my friends in law enforcement to be sure) validating it is pretty much a call to dispatch away.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 12-07-2017 at 03:07 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    If you have to ask "a friend in law enforcement", there's a problem right there

  10. #10
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    If you have to ask "a friend in law enforcement", there's a problem right there
    Why is that?

  11. #11
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Because that means "the process" is more difficult than you presume

    And for the most part, gun legislation/regulation is mostly about "the process"

  12. #12
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Because that means "the process" is more difficult than you presume

    And for the most part, gun legislation/regulation is mostly about "the process"
    I am not following. Imperfect knowledge of a process I only have tangential knowledge and experience with is completely unrelated to the difficulty of that process. I also have only a cursory knowledge of how license, registration, and insurance statuses are checked across state lines, but I somehow doubt they are a major headache for police officers.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    As far as I know l, (I'll try and remember to ask one of my friends in law enforcement to be sure) validating it is pretty much a call to dispatch away.
    It looks like it varies on the state of the CCW holder. For the police officer that I've spoken to, when he runs the DL# it will return whether or not the have a valid carry permit. For states that it does not show up on, it would require a call to dispatch who would handle the validation process.

  14. #14
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    For some people the only call made will be for an ambulance.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #15
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    For some people the only call made will be for an ambulance.
    This is sadly true. What to do with that information, I don't know.

  16. #16
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    As little as I worry about the fears expressed in the article, and by opponents to this legislation in general, (someone who is looking to stalk, abuse, or kill their significant other is likely not going to be a stickler about adhering to local, state, or federal laws, with regard to concealed carry or otherwise), I still can't muster support for this bill. As much as I like the idea of being able to carry in states where I am currently prohibited from doing so, this does seem to be the wrong way of doing that. I like federalism. I want states to be able to experiment and try new things, and what works for Montana might not work for New York. The reverse is also true.
    Same. And I think pushing for this kind of legislation on guns will simply federalize the issue further.

    Also the guy in the article photo could use some work on his target practice. Though we all know handguns are tough sometimes.

  17. #17
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I am not following. Imperfect knowledge of a process I only have tangential knowledge and experience with is completely unrelated to the difficulty of that process. I also have only a cursory knowledge of how license, registration, and insurance statuses are checked across state lines, but I somehow doubt they are a major headache for police officers.
    As Fuzzy outlined, there is no national standard, and no national data base. That means police departments can't possibly do what you think (ie, they don't have a way to validate licenses across state lines).

  18. #18
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    As Fuzzy outlined, there is no national standard, and no national data base. That means police departments can't possibly do what you think (ie, they don't have a way to validate licenses across state lines).
    You are wrong. They can and do.

  19. #19
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    You are wrong. They can and do.
    Please explain why you're comfortable with state policies, when there's no coordination or continuity between states or across state lines.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Please explain why you're comfortable with state policies, when there's no coordination or continuity between states or across state lines.
    I don't know how to have this conversation. You are wrong about the basic underlying facts, and seemingly unwilling to unable to recognize this. Police can and do check the validity of carry permits across state lines. There is coordination between police agencies in different states. Reciprocity, (arranged by the states not the federal government) currently allows for a degree of continuity, even if there may be slight variances in the specifics - see shall inform provisions. The carry permit granted to me by my state is currently recognized by a majority of states, without federal interference.

    Please explain why you are so comfortable being dogmatic about a topic you have little to no experience with or understanding of.

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